Improved Two Weapon Defense and Double Weapons

[StreamOfTheSky]

Wasn't Improved Buckler Defense mentioned in the post right above yours?

IBD does have drawbacks, and if the PC does fight defensively often, TWD is twice the bonus, so it's not as clear cut a decision with his game's houserules. I tried to analyze the pros and cons of each as much as I could think of them. Unless there are other unique aspects of the campaign that might affect things.

 

[Herzog]

Also, Combat Expertise. Improved Two Weapon Defense requires 2 feats to get a +4 to AC when fighting defensively, incurring a -4 penalty in the process.

He ALSO has Combat Expertise. And you can use both at the same time.

You can't hit me! I can't hit you either, so I'm going to stand here useless because I can't power project, and you can ignore me and go around me to murder my teammates while I do nothing to stop it!

This assumes hitting the opponent is the objective.
Usually, one of the objectives is to provide flanking (for the rogue). Another is staying near the combat to provide another character extra hp through 'shield other'. A third is delaying the opponent until one of the 'strikers' can get to them.

And why assume you can't hit the opponent in the first place? They have as little magic bonusses as we do, so AC rarely goes past 20. Unless they fight defensively as well, in which case you have a standoff.

Would you be surprised if I told you that your campaign is drastically different from what the rules were written to support and thus anyone replying to this thread would not assume the drastic level of low magic the DM instituted?

No, I'm not surprised. I realised the assumptions made, which is why I ignored the first post, and added the clarification after your post.
That said, I think (especially on the subject of optimization) too much is assumed to be 'normal' for a campaign to have. And yes, I'm aware some of the mechanics break down when you don't have the assumed Wealth by Level and Magic Item availability. I find that rather pathetic of the gamesystem, to be honest.

2. If he uses a Quarterstaff and frequently fights defensively, PLEASE tell me he grabbed the Quickstaff weapon style feat (also in Complete Warrior)! It's +3 AC for basically just doing what he's doing already.

No, he did not. Thank you for pointing that one out.
I haven't played a lot of fighters myself, so I'm not too familiar with those feats. I'll recommend it.

Thank you for your time.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Also, I was wrong. Quick Staff is only +2 AC. I probably thought it was +3 because any time a PC has taken it in games I've played, he also has the Cautious trait, and I just kind of meshed the two together. Still a decent feat, though I suppose no better than the TWD line.

On the subject of Complete Warrior, has the PC looked at the Elusive Target tactical feat? No straight AC boost, but two of its options greatly add to your protection. One tactic simply negates Power Attack's damage bonus (they still eat the attack penalty) on the person you use Dodge on. Another is if you're flanked, and one of the flankers is your dodge buddy, his first attack each round automatically misses you AND he has to roll to see if he hits his own ally. Protection from Power Attack and flanking (or at least such strong discouragement of them that few foes will be willing to use them on you) is surely as valuable as a few points of AC.

 

[Dandu]

He ALSO has Combat Expertise. And you can use both at the same time.

Wooo! Attack penalties galore!

This assumes hitting the opponent is the objective.

Let's take a close look at this one.

Usually, one of the objectives is to provide flanking (for the rogue).

Which would work better if he could hurt people along with the rogue, I would imagine.

Another is staying near the combat to provide another character extra hp through 'shield other'.

Actually contributing to the combat with damage seems to me more useful than being an HP battery.

A third is delaying the opponent until one of the 'strikers' can get to them.

How? Does the player have some class feature that prevents people from going past him?

And why assume you can't hit the opponent in the first place?

Alright, let's see.

For this example, let's look at a hypothetical level 6 fighter

Now, Int of at least 13, which leaves less points for Str, Dex, and Con.

You have to have decent Con in order to be an HP battery. You have to have good Dex for the two weapon stuff. Guess you take a hit to strength.

Which... just happens to be the stat contributing to your AB.

So let's say you have a Str of 16. That leaves you with enough points for a starting Dex of 16 (can be bumped to 17 at level 4 to qualify for ITWD), Con of 14, Int of 14, and Wis 8 Cha 8. This, of course, assume a 32 point buy, which may not be the case in your game.

You have 7 feat so far.

Combat Expertise, Two Weapon Fighting, Two Weapon Defense, and Improved Two Weapon Defense are already given. That leaves 3 floating.

Assuming you have a +1 or masterwork weapon, and the Weapon Focus feat, you have an AB of 6+3+1=11.

A -4 penalty from Fighting Defensively reduces that to +7. The -2 penalty from two weapon fighting reduces that to +5. A -11 penalty (Combat Expertise) improves that to +0.

Assuming your enemy has an AC of, say, 18 (No Dex, full plate), then you hit 35% of the time when fighting defensively with the double weapon. Flanking with a rogue improves this to hitting 45% of the time. Assuming you have a +1 weapon and the Weapon Specialization feat, you deal 1d6+3+1+2= 9.5 damage.

To be fair, you get two attacks. I wouldn't trust my own calculations, but it seems that you only hit both times 12.25% of the time. Not that great.

On the bright side, your AC is about 18 normally and 22 when fighting defensively. At level 6, the enemy can have an AB of about 11 which means he'll hit you half the time too. Except he'll probably be doing more damage...

 

[Herzog]

@Streamofthesky:Even a +2 AC is interesting considering the campaign and it's restrictions.

And yes, he had looked at Elusive Target, but considers it 'too situational'.

@Dandu: I could be mistaken, but you seem to be of the opinion that someone can not provide meaningfull support in combat without dealing damage. I recognize that opinion as one different from mine and that of the player in question. Your thoughts on the subject are appreciated, but I find myself unwilling to continue the debate. Thank you.

 

[Dandu]

@Dandu: I could be mistaken, but you seem to be of the opinion that someone can not provide meaningfull support in combat without dealing damage.

Not true. Aside from dealing damage, one can contribute in combat by locking people down, immobilizing them, tripping them, disarming them, and other things. It's just that standing around unable to hit or be hit is none of these.

 

[coyote6]

On the bright side, your AC is about 18 normally and 22 when fighting defensively. At level 6, the enemy can have an AB of about 11 which means he'll hit you half the time too. Except he'll probably be doing more damage...

Your AC calculatation seems wrong -- AC: +5 Combat Expertise +4 iTWD +2 fight defensively +3 Dex = AC 24. Add in armor -- either a chain shirt or a breastplate seems feasible for the milieu, so that would be AC 28 or 29, which isn't bad for a nearly-no-magic 6th level character.

If he somehow has 5 ranks of Tumble, he can get another +1 AC from fighting defensively, but he'd probably have to forego the breastplate, depending on whether getting the increase in AC for fighting defensively counts as "using the skill" (since one can't use Tumble when one's speed has been reduced by armor or encumbrance).

 

[Dandu]

Your AC calculatation seems wrong -- AC: +5 Combat Expertise +4 iTWD +2 fight defensively +3 Dex = AC 24.

I assumed that Expertise was not used fully so as to have a positive attack bonus.

Add in armor -- either a chain shirt or a breastplate seems feasible for the milieu, so that would be AC 28 or 29, which isn't bad for a nearly-no-magic 6th level character.

Yes, I forgot about armor. That is very nice. However... since the character can't hit or deal damage worth squat, what prevents people from ignoring him and murdering whomever he's trying to protect? This is basically my key issue with AC optimization.

If he somehow has 5 ranks of Tumble, he can get another +1 AC from fighting defensively, but he'd probably have to forego the breastplate, depending on whether getting the increase in AC for fighting defensively counts as "using the skill" (since one can't use Tumble when one's speed has been reduced by armor or encumbrance).

Doesn't count as using the skill.

 

[coyote6]

I assumed that Expertise was not used fully so as to have a positive attack bonus.

Bah! If you're going to forego any good chance of hitting, you might as well go all out.

Besides, in your original post, you wrote that the hypothetical fighter's attack bonus was +11, and:

A -4 penalty from Fighting Defensively reduces that to +7. The -2 penalty from two weapon fighting reduces that to +5. A -11 penalty (Combat Expertise) improves that to +0.

-11 penalty: -2 TWF, -4 Fight Defensively, -5 Combat Expertise. I'm assuming the change in Combat Expertise (from the full -5 to -3?) was unstated and came later?

 

[Dandu]

Hm. There must have been a typo at some point.