Temple of Elemental Evil - expectations

[Blackbrrd]

I have only DM-ed the return to TOEE, and it's the same problem: It's a giant dungeon.

I haven't used a module* with a "dungeon" larger than maybe... ten rooms after this because it really kills my mood to describe room after room filled with stupid monsters.

*I ran the first 4e module which is one huge dungeon, but that was mostly to get an idea of how 4e worked, not to roleplay.

 

[Jhaelen]

I never got the chance to play the module. But everyone that had, always talked about it as if it was the holy grail of adventure modules.

I'm actually a bit relieved to see that legend debunked. I found none of the 'classic' modules were actually that great - I played several of them (Tsojcanth, Tomb of Horror, White-Plume Mountain) when they were re-released for 2e. I guess, you really had to play them when they were initially released.

Yesterday I finished reading the 4e update of Hommlet. How close is it to the original? Because I felt it wasn't remotely as good or interesting as, e.g. Hammerfast.

 

[MichaelSomething]

Played the computer version and my experiences more or less match. It has it's good points and its bad points.

 

[Crothian]

I found none of the 'classic' modules were actually that great - I played several of them (Tsojcanth, Tomb of Horror, White-Plume Mountain) when they were re-released for 2e. I guess, you really had to play them when they were initially released.

2e is different enough from 1e that the modules really weren't the same. Plus the gaming had changed so what people wanted from adventures was different and it seemed to me to be a whole different experience by then.

 

[Bullgrit]

After the awesome that was T1 and the village of Hommlet I was expecting something major for T2-4. Instead it became the longest dungeon crawl I had ever been in.

See, this is what confuses me. T1's adventure was the moathouse -- a quintessential dungeon crawl.

The Temple was a super-dungeon crawl in the same vein. So I don't understand how people were expecting something else. ToEE was exactly what I expected based on T1's adventure.

So whether ToEE was good or not, I don't see how folks could be disappointed in or surprised by it being a big ol' dungeon crawl.

Bullgrit

 

[Ahnirades]

See, this is what confuses me. T1's adventure was the moathouse -- a quintessential dungeon crawl.

The Temple was a super-dungeon crawl in the same vein. So I don't understand how people were expecting something else. ToEE was exactly what I expected based on T1's adventure.

So whether ToEE was good or not, I don't see how folks could be disappointed in or surprised by it being a big ol' dungeon crawl.

It depends on your tolerance levels. How big is too big? One hundred rooms? A thousand? Whilst it undoubtedly varies, I imagine most people have their cut off point. ToEE certainly exceeded mine.

 

[amerigoV]

It depends on your tolerance levels. How big is too big? One hundred rooms? A thousand? Whilst it undoubtedly varies, I imagine most people have their cut off point. ToEE certainly exceeded mine.

I agree here. I never played ToEE PnP other than Hommlet, but I did play the video game. I enjoyed the game (once you patched the hell out of it), but I do not think I would have enjoyed playing it out at the table.

The difference is that the Moathouse was nice and contained. It played out in a couple of sessions. Since there is a town and wilderness, it has a variety of what you encounter. The Temple itself just appeared to have a few too many levels. Once you got in, it seemed like you stayed in.

I am curious for those that played it - did the politics between the temples come out or did the groups get in such a "kick in the door" mentality that you shot first and asked questions later?

I did run the RttToEE (twice). The Crater Ridge Mines had the same issue. Both times, I replaced that section with other material. The recovered temple was thankfully paired down from the original.

I do not mind dungeon crawls, but it seems that ToEE needed to break theirs up a bit - maybe top layer, second "dungeon" layer, then the EE temples attached to the nodes to give it some flavor.

 

[Holy Bovine]

See, this is what confuses me. T1's adventure was the moathouse -- a quintessential dungeon crawl.

The Temple was a super-dungeon crawl in the same vein. So I don't understand how people were expecting something else. ToEE was exactly what I expected based on T1's adventure.

So whether ToEE was good or not, I don't see how folks could be disappointed in or surprised by it being a big ol' dungeon crawl.

Bullgrit

I guess it was the sameness of so much of the dungeon that bothered me. Large dungeons are tolerable but they have to have some interesting hooks & flavour to make them interesting. The moathouse had this for me and my group but the Temple itself just seemed like so much rehashing of the same thing over and over. Of course given the 5 year interval between playing T1 and ToEE it could very well be I had 'moved on' from pure dungeon bashing by that point.

 

[Holy Bovine]

I am curious for those that played it - did the politics between the temples come out or did the groups get in such a "kick in the door" mentality that you shot first and asked questions later?

Never in my group. The DM, who was quite talented in running interesting games with a good variety of encounters, really struggled with getting some kind of interaction going but the rather subtle differences (beyond I use fire/water/earth etc based attacks) between the temples really didn't come out.

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

The problem with the ToEE is not that it's a big dungeon crawl. I love the big dungeon crawl concept, and I like creating and running them.. The problem with ToEE is that it tends to be a boring slog of a dungeon crawl, if run as written.

The first issue is that ToEE is what I would call a "lair style" dungeon writ large. That is, it has a more logical and purposeful design compared to a magical madhouse underworld. That "realistic" ecology and reasonableness makes the classic mode of adventure in a megadungeon (i.e. exploration of the unknown) hard to pull off. The way ToEE is set up, you tend to end up facing organized resistance to incursion that makes for a lot of similar encounters with the dominant groups (e.g. another room of gnolls or bugbears or whatever). In a place the size of the ToEE dungeons, that makes for a slog.

There also isn't very much empty or dead space in the temple dungeons. That contributes to the "go to the next room, fight the humanoids" factor. If there were more "no man's land" areas in the dungeons, it might open up the exploration aspect, and also perhaps give more opportunity for maneuvering among the temple factions.

The temple factions are the key to making ToEE more fun, in my opinion. Instead of relying on an exploration-based approach (i.e. explore and fight your way through the dungeon), which ToEE isn't well suited for, you can spin it into a more "political" adventure where the focus isn't on exploring the dungeon as much as it is on chicanery and negotiation and playing one side off against the other. In order to do that well, you need to really work up the NPCs for the various factions, and provide lots of opportunity for the PCs to get involved in that fashion.

With that kind of approach, forays into the dungeon might be more commando-style raids with assistance (maps, hints, or even escort through certain areas) from dubious allies, rather than traditional "explore and loot" expeditions. And there would probably be as much game-play and action outside the dungeon as inside. Nulb would probably be extremely well-developed by the time such a campaign ended.