Temple of Elemental Evil - expectations

Something I find interesting in this is how old-timers/grognards, who usually defend to the death things that are AD&D1 in general, and EGG especially, are either quiet on this product, or they agree with the negativity.

I'm a grognard, but I don't think Gygax was infallible or that 1E is the best system I've played. Having said that, I loved the module; yeah, it's a giant crawl with literally thousands of monsters in it. However, our DM ran it in "episodes" -- we conquered the dungeon slowly. Always our brutal forays were followed by a lot role-playing and side quests; I think we probably had some kind of relationship with almost every NPC in Hommlet. Plus there was stuff happening in Verbobonc as well. And, the dungeon felt like a dynamic environment; *something* had always changed when we went down. I think we avoided "battle weariness" due to our DM running the module as a campaign with lots of role-playing and extra stuff going on. I can imagine that it wouldn't have been as fun if we had just camped in the dungeon and cleared it in one foray.

When I think back to those days, I have fond memories playing in ToEE; if I had the chance, I'd play it again -- anytime. :)
 

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Something I find interesting in this is how old-timers/grognards, who usually defend to the death things that are AD&D1 in general, and EGG especially, are either quiet on this product, or they agree with the negativity. [snip]

But with ToEE, there's no old-schooler defense?

I think that elements of ToEE are good, but that it just doesn't hold together sufficiently in play, without a lot of up-front prep work. I'm sure it can be made to shine, and to shine brightly, with a DM who's willing to make that effort, but the module doesn't (atm, anyway) inspire such efforts from me.

Those who were disppointed with ToEE, where you also disappointed with things like Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth, Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun, and Keep on the Borderland? Aren't they all in a very similar style -- writing style and organization and design style?

If not, what makes ToEE not like the others?

From my POV:

- ToEE vs. S4/WG4: both S4 and WG4 are much-more straightforward modules, more along the line lines of the G/D modules: "go forth, kill the monsters, and keep any stuff you find" (G/D) vs. "go forth, find the stuff, and kill some monsters along the way" (S4/WG4). I like those modules, and EGG's designs in such instances are top-notch (S1 falls into a similar vein, in my mind)

- I think ToEE vs. B2 is a much-more apt comparison: it's more open-ended than the other two modules, and is also clearly meant to be customized (DM has to name the NPCs, figure out if any of the Keep's inhabitants are in league with Caves of Chaos folks, place it relative to some nearby? civilization, etc.), and also features the need for PCs to make repeated forays into the environs from the nearby safe haven---if they try to tackle B2 or ToEE all at once, they're doomed to failure. FWIW, while I like B2, it's not at the top of my preferred Gygax modules, although I do certainly use it more often than ToEE.

Old schoolers tend to be a lot more defensive on ENWorld than they are in places such as Knights & Knaves Alehouse. Ofc 'new schoolers', fans of 4e, and everyone else, are all more defensive about their preferred edition here than they would be on safe territory, amongst like-minded people.

I feel as much at home here as on K&K or DF, so I can't agree with you on that one, Doug.

Eh, I dunno. I call 'em like I see 'em, wherever I am.

Ditto.

I'm a grognard, but I don't think Gygax was infallible or that 1E is the best system I've played. Having said that, I loved the module; yeah, it's a giant crawl with literally thousands of monsters in it. However, our DM ran it in "episodes" -- we conquered the dungeon slowly. Always our brutal forays were followed by a lot role-playing and side quests; I think we probably had some kind of relationship with almost every NPC in Hommlet. Plus there was stuff happening in Verbobonc as well. And, the dungeon felt like a dynamic environment; *something* had always changed when we went down. I think we avoided "battle weariness" due to our DM running the module as a campaign with lots of role-playing and extra stuff going on. I can imagine that it wouldn't have been as fun if we had just camped in the dungeon and cleared it in one foray.

This sounds like what I was trying to describe above: when the DM makes the extra effort with ToEE I think it really can shine. Perhaps ToEE, unlike many other modules from BITD, really did require a more mature DM to pull it off vs. the usual teen ager running it??
 

Those who were disppointed with ToEE, where you also disappointed with things like Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth, Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun, and Keep on the Borderland?
Of the Gygaxian adventure modules I actually played, Tsojcanth was probably the best one.

It didn't make a lot of sense but at least it was fun!

It was very similar to the way my self-written modules looked like back in the days. I.e. I didn't particularly care about internal logic and focused on fun and often 'gimmicky' maps instead.
 

<casts Raise Dead on the thread>

Sorry, I necro'd the thread. Recently bought the 4th ed books and was looking to DM the old Temple of Elemental Evil module so I ran a search to see if there was a 4th ed version and this thread popped.

I, for one, loved the game. But then, the fact that it was my first adventure in the Dungeons and Dragons game, has probably biased me somewhat. Remember how great D&D was when you first started playing? Until that point, my only RPG experience was Commodore 64 games like The Bard's Tale I, II, and III, Wizardy, Might & Magic, etc. And I had always been into fantasy books such as Tolkien's Middle Earth books, Fred Saberhagen's "Book of Swords" series, Tad William's "Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn" series, The Shinara series, etc. I could go on and on, but those of you who were into D&D during that time period probably know the great fantasy books of the era. I can't remember exactly when I played it. Was my sophmore year of high school so most likely '86, '87? During the AD&D era, not too long before 2nd ed. AD&D.

Anyway, I was lucky to begin my D&D experience with a great DM at the reins. He was a great storyteller, and very creative. He really brought "The Temple of Elemental Evil" to life. The village of Hommlet eventually felt like a home. Our DM brought all the NPC's to life, as well as the struggle between the faiths (not like the generic mundane quests from the computer game version). The plot of the trader spies. And the moathouse was very fun. Lareth was smart, and managed to escape. After returning from the Moathouse, we ended up questing to recue a young girl from Hommlet named Kayla, which had been taken by a small dragon after it attacked an outlying farm near Hommlet. We had returned from out victory at the Moathouse only to find the farmer pleading for help to a crowd that had gathered to hear his tale outside the Welcome Wench. You get the picture, so to make it short, after rescuing Kayla, and enjoying our victory of slaying the dragon and ridding the moathouse of the dangers within. The victory was short lived as Lareth ended up kidnapping the newly rescued girl to spite the PC's and plotted further revenge by incorporating her into his plans as a sacrifice to the demoness Lolth, so that she could surplant her enemy Zuggtmoy and take power over the Temple. He used the girl as a lure and incintive to find and enter the temple. To serve his ends, we would weaken the Temple for him to take power. And if we died in the process, all the better. Needless to say, he was a thorn in our side for some time, as fitting for one said to be favored by Lolth and the hope of chaos and evil.

And there was so much intrigue in Nulb. From the pirate's hangout of the Boatman's Tavern, to the seedy and sinister atmosphere of the Waterside Hostel. From the pit arena to ,later in the game, storming of Nulb's jail to free Ottis (things not even in the module, but that developed through role play). Our DM didn't feed us a bunch of knowledge in Hommlet the way the module is written. Our explorations and investigations lead us to the actual temple.

And there was SO much atmosphere within the temple itself. Finding the robes in the temple proper before decending below. This was fun because we simply picked a color and went with it, heh. An earth temple patrol was awfully curious as to why emissaries from the air temple were in earth temple territory without permission or escort, which led to some interesting role play after we parleyed our way into Romag's presence... You get the idea. The whole adventure inside was full of role play, intrigue between the factions, and some fairly epic battles (our DM was also strict and limiting when it came to handing out magic items, he was no fan of the "Monty Hall" style of play).

Then there was the Falrinth, emissary of the Red Wizards (since our game took place in the Forgotten Realms setting, before it's steady decline that began with the Avatar Trilogy and continued through many FR novels. Don't get me wrong, I loved actually reading the Avatar Trilogy, but it was just a story that took place in the Forgotten Realms setting, like the others. I see no reason why it had to be made law so to speak in the campaign setting's lore. Some books you like, some you don't. To each his own, so why not leave it up to the DM's and players to incorporate novels into the setting and give them that choice instead of changing the world to reflect one guy's story?). Anyway..sorry, off-track rant.. there was the hill giant, Skorp. Senshock, of course Hedrack, and the missing woman from Hommlet (forget her name, been awhile). Oh, and Prince Thrommel of course. So many stories. Too many to discuss without turning this already lengthy post into a book.

And our DM was very creative with the nodes. My favorite was the air node, where there were air ships, and thus, pirates. And a floating city called Bazaar, complete with arena, smugglers, and all kinds of other goodies.

Oh, and I forgot the siege of Hommlet before the nodes, but after we encounter Falrinth after which we ended up fleeing the temple ahead of their attack on Hommlet. Burne's keep had been completed at that point (it was being finished up when we started the module). The siege was great fun, starting out looking grim, but then swinging toward our favor, but then ending up with a forcast of eventual doom unless there was a strike at the heart of the temple. Which lead the party to escaping the keep through a secret passage, and reentering the temple to face the nodes and Hedrack...

So the game was anything but a dull dungeon crawl to me. And in the years since that game, I've DM'd it to several groups, drawing on the creativity of my old DM and tailoring it to each particular group and it's players. I've been happy with the game every time.

Like any module, you just have to get creative. Read it, form your opinions based on the story as presented, your own tastes, and the tendencies of your players. Modify as needed, or leave it if it's just more work than you're willing to do. Myself, I don't think I've ever DM'd a module as written. There's always room for improving if you consider the above. Course I don't even use published module that often, but sometimes (such as in the case of the Temple of Elemental Evil) I manage to find a module with a storyline, background, plot, or other idea that is just too hard to pass up, so I make it my own adapt it to my group.

Don't get me wrong, with real life responsibilities, I definitely understand the arguments about buying modules so you don't have to do the work yourself. But realistically, at least as far as I'm concerned, you always have to put in a little effort of your own if you want to make the game memorable to your group.
 
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Hallzon said:
I forget, did Gary also not use the enter key?

No, he didn't, which was always my problem with ToEE. OMG wall o' text! *eyes glaze over* It wasn't until I played the computer version that I found out just what all was actually in the place!

-The Gneech :cool:
 

Several people, in many discussions, have mentioned how the Temple of Elemental Evil was a disappointment. Especially after waiting so many years after The Village of Hommlet.

What were you expecting for ToEE? What would have made it not a disappointment?

Bullgrit

Not sure which version we're talking about here. Is it the Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil from Monte Cook for 3.0 or some other version? That's the one I have.

Anyways, my only complaint was the Dwarven Mines. My players took the kill everything and get their phat lewt approach, so that was 200+ rooms of exploration. By far the largest dungeon crawl I ever ran. It would have been more interesting if actually those four temples were in separate locations and probably more exotic for the elements they represented.
 

The complete Temple of Elemental Evil was the second adventure book I bought for 1st ed AD&D (Book of Lairs 2 was the first) and I remember that it wasn't until 2nd ed that I actually got to run it.

The keep/moathouse bit always worked well but the actual Temple and dungeons themselves were terrible. I hate weird (and large) dungeon layouts and ToEE had some of the worst I have seen. It made mapping almost impossible for the players and wasted time while I had to correct obvious errors in their mapwork. Plus it never felt that I properly fleshed out dungeon.

RttToEE was much better but still had issues that caused us to give up on it after an almost TPK less than half way throguh the module.

ToE will remain a fond part of my D&D collection but I have no doubts as to how poor a module it really was.
 

I never ran ToEE, mainly because I thought it would take a huge amount of work to make it enjoyable. My opinion of it was always, "It had a cool idea at the core of it (demon lord trapped in it that might be accidentally released if you do the wrong thing), but it was badly executed"...
 

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