[Ari Marmell's blog] To House Rule or Not to House Rule

I don't think there's as big a difference. I mean, PRCs were in the DMG to begin with, yet they became a "must have" item pretty quickly.
I think they became a "Must have" because every book that came out after the Core had PrCs next to Feats and Spells. PrCs were just another form of crunch that got treadmilled out. It was clearly a "HEY PLAYERS LOOK AT THIS" and it made them Legitimate, instead of hiding them in the DMG.

On the other hand. Compare this with magical items and other rewards. The DM is the one who hands out treasure, or the PCs have to make it. The DM could even institute the Inherent bonuses houserule (Which is in the DMG2). And the other alternative rewards. While players may think they "MUST HAVE" loot, loot is one of those things that is completely in the DM's control (well, assuming you don't start above level 1 :p).
 

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Because even in 3.0 the majority of PRC's were published in player oriented books, so while they may have started in the DMG... they were placed in player-centric books as opposed to DM centric books thus opening them up as a player resource. This is actually the exact opposite of what I am proposing.

Maybe- I wonder which came first though... chicken or egg? Did they move to the player books because they were liked so much that players just wanted them as player resources?

Don't know- I'm not privy to WoTCs info.

The point being though that once it's out there- no matter what book it's in, it's out there and becomes a cool thing for someone to want to play with. (And why wouldn't they? It's cool!)

It reminds me of Vampire when the Sabbat stuff came out.... suddenly eeeeeeeveryone wanted to be a Sabbat. :P

Just human nature I guess.

And as to your second stattement... again, I never had a player pester me to use stuff out of DMG 2 or Unearthed Arcana.

Great. I did.

Guess we're even!


Not so sure WotC is sticking to this model. They published the hybrid rules in PHB 3... with cautions on using them in the game. And I'm certain we'll see more stuff like this as more things are published.

Hey! Like sticking the optional hybrid rules in a PHB instead of a DMG...

Yeah- I'm sure they will from time to time, exceptions to every rule and what not. It seems though, that they've done a lot to cut down on the number of "optional unbalancing cool elements" in the game.

(I'm also not sure how the hybrid rules work out... Are they unbalanced? Just potentially unbalanced? Or actualkly balanced? I don't own PHB3 so I haven't looked at them much yet.)

And who knows- maybe they'll swing the pendulum back towards offering optional/unbalanced stuff. I cannot tell the future, and I don't set their business plans.

All I can say is that they seemed to have changed focus away from those elements, and I have a thought on why. Feel free to disagree (as you obviously do) it will not hurt my feelings. :D


They force you to purchase and use all the stuff they publish? And if you houserule or disallow anything... how is there any difference?

Why is it that people always jump to the "They don't force you to buy it" thing?

Even if I don't own a book, chances are if the book has something a player thinks is neat that thing will make its way to my table via a player saying "Can I, can I?"

I don't houserule that much- usually only to add something we think is fun.

Anyway- my original point was really why I felt WoTC was doing much less of the optional unbalancing factors.

Sorry you seem to have lost an element you enjoyed.

Happy gaming otherwise!
 

Maybe- I wonder which came first though... chicken or egg? Did they move to the player books because they were liked so much that players just wanted them as player resources?

Don't know- I'm not privy to WoTCs info.

Well let's think for a minute... The DMG was released in...Sept 2000, I believe the first player-centric splatbook (featuring PRC's) was Sword & Fist which was released in January 2001, that's a 3 month span between the two. Now unless development and lead times have drastically increased since 2000, I can only assume WotC purposefully put them in player centric products since these products were designed before any measure of popularity could be gauged.

The point being though that once it's out there- no matter what book it's in, it's out there and becomes a cool thing for someone to want to play with. (And why wouldn't they? It's cool!)

It reminds me of Vampire when the Sabbat stuff came out.... suddenly eeeeeeeveryone wanted to be a Sabbat. :P

Just human nature I guess.

Oh, you mean like the Player's Guide to the Sabatt? Which was a guide for players to create and run Sabatt PC's. I don't think this is exactly the same thing as a part of the game designed to be purely GM territory, and only in GM books. This is like claiming the Dragonblooded in Exalted were only suppose to be GM antagonists and not played as characters because they first showed up as antagonists... yet they got a fatsplat for players.


Great. I did.

Guess we're even!.

I'm curious what exactly did your players throw a fit about not being able to use from these books?



Yeah- I'm sure they will from time to time, exceptions to every rule and what not. It seems though, that they've done a lot to cut down on the number of "optional unbalancing cool elements" in the game.

(I'm also not sure how the hybrid rules work out... Are they unbalanced? Just potentially unbalanced? Or actualkly balanced? I don't own PHB3 so I haven't looked at them much yet.)

And who knows- maybe they'll swing the pendulum back towards offering optional/unbalanced stuff. I cannot tell the future, and I don't set their business plans.

All I can say is that they seemed to have changed focus away from those elements, and I have a thought on why. Feel free to disagree (as you obviously do) it will not hurt my feelings. :D

Uhmm... I'm not trying to hurt your feelings (not even sure where that came from). So what exactly are your thoughts on why?


Why is it that people always jump to the "They don't force you to buy it" thing?

Even if I don't own a book, chances are if the book has something a player thinks is neat that thing will make its way to my table via a player saying "Can I, can I?"

Why is it that some people often exaggerate beyond it being their own oppinion (as opposed to a real fact) that they somehow must use things from various books in D&D?

I guess I'm so used to running 3.5 where I as DM say these are the books I am using in my campaign, and then listing anything from those books I disallow... that I haven't had the experience of a player showing up with some random, out of nowhere, game element and trying to force it on me. Of course if they did I would just say no or yes depending on my evaluation of it.

I must say after reading your second paragraph, I find it strange that (especially with DDI) one of your playershasn't requested the hybrid rules, especially as you've had players who went through DMG 2 and Unearthed Arcana scouring for stuff to use.

I don't houserule that much- usually only to add something we think is fun.

Anyway- my original point was really why I felt WoTC was doing much less of the optional unbalancing factors.

Sorry you seem to have lost an element you enjoyed.

Happy gaming otherwise!

No need to be sorry, I didn't loose an element I enjoyed... I still have my 3.5 books (and the hybrid rules for 4e). Though I would like to see some more of these elements in 4e. Perhaps the Dark Sun Defiler rules will also be this type of game element.
 

Why is it that some people often exaggerate beyond it being their own oppinion (as opposed to a real fact) that they somehow must use things from various books in D&D?

I guess I'm so used to running 3.5 where I as DM say these are the books I am using in my campaign, and then listing anything from those books I disallow... that I haven't had the experience of a player showing up with some random, out of nowhere, game element and trying to force it on me. Of course if they did I would just say no or yes depending on my evaluation of it.

I must say after reading your second paragraph, I find it strange that (especially with DDI) one of your playershasn't requested the hybrid rules, especially as you've had players who went through DMG 2 and Unearthed Arcana scouring for stuff to use.

Here's the thing. In 4E, I'm able to run a campaign where the default assumption is that anything goes. If it is found in a 4E product, they can use it. They can go out any buy whatever items are appropriate, use whatever feats and paragon paths they want, they can plunder DDI to their heart's content, and in the end, I can sit down at the table, and nothing gamebreaking is going to surprise me.

I couldn't really do that in 3.5. Not all sourcebooks were created equal, nor dragon articles. Certain combinations of items, feats, prestige classes... were problematic. There was a general agreement to avoid anything too ridiculous in the core rules, and that anything outside of those was off-limits. But it was a bit of a headache when a player would ask if they could use something interesting they discovered somewhere, and I would have to sit down and analyze it myself to see if it would be fine within the game.

I really, really like not having to do that anymore.

I mean, I get what you miss - having some exceptional items to surprise PCs with, having unforgivably lethal traps and monsters to really fill them with fear - I get it. I could probably even get behind an optional book that delved into some of that, but was very up front about it being at the DM's discretion only.

Of course, I'm also of the opinion you could probably capture most of the flavor and ability of these things without needing to go outside the core rules at all - so I'd be a fan of seeing more along those lines, too.

But I really don't want stuff in the main rulebooks that a DM has to veto. I don't want to deal with that hassle. I'm already frustrated at the few problem childs that have cropped up in 4E, like Expertise. But they are few and far between, and isolated enough to easily remove or add at my leisure.

Even hybrids are welcome in how easily they fit into the rules. Sure, it has a comment about being careful how you use them - but more to try and steer PCs away from inferior choices. Most characters aren't going to stumble into a ranger/warlock whose stats are spread unacceptably thin - but the potential is there more than with standard characters, thus the warning.

I really don't see it as the same thing. "Use at your own risk" is a useful warning, but also a dangerous one - it doesn't always work. And even when it does, it can put a burden on the DM to make that call. I can entirely understand wanting that option there, but my own experience, like Scribble's, has benefited from it not being present in the game.
 

@MrMyth: I never suggested this type of game material become core, from the beginning of my argument I held up Unearthed Arcana (a DM-centric book of optional rules for a DM to implement (or not) in his campaign, with accompanying advice and sidebars explaining the ramifications and effects) as my model for a similar 4e book.

In your post you've already said you wouldn't be against such a product... what baffles me are those that are against something like this book being published for 4e and citing anything from super strong-willed/whiny players who will force them to accept the material into their game (or force them to spend a long time saying no to the player)... to horrible DM's who will use the optional material to squash out the fun of their players and shatter the enjoyment of the game.


So basically I feel the message is... you shouldn't get your fun because I don't know how to/ don't want to have fun with it...even if it's in a separate optional book. Just seems like some pretty poor excuses that will probably stop 4e from ever catering to a wider number of playstyles.
 

Well let's think for a minute... The DMG was released in...Sept 2000, I believe the first player-centric splatbook (featuring PRC's) was Sword & Fist which was released in January 2001, that's a 3 month span between the two. Now unless development and lead times have drastically increased since 2000, I can only assume WotC purposefully put them in player centric products since these products were designed before any measure of popularity could be gauged.

Yeah- I'm guessing they saw the opportunity there to make an ongoing stream of add-ons. (And with the popularity of kits, it probably wasn't so big of a stretch.)

Shrug.

Either way it's still an element that relies on the DM to either say no you can't, or do extra work to include it.

Oh, you mean like the Player's Guide to the Sabatt? Which was a guide for players to create and run Sabatt PC's. I don't think this is exactly the same thing as a part of the game designed to be purely GM territory, and only in GM books. This is like claiming the Dragonblooded in Exalted were only suppose to be GM antagonists and not played as characters because they first showed up as antagonists... yet they got a fatsplat for players.

Ummm yes... they were a "cool thing" so suddenly everyone wanted to play one.. The point being that if something is "cool" human nature makes people want to take part in said thing. The thing which is cool in this case being the Sabbat.

IN D&D 1/2 demon being a cool thing.. Or Drow... Or 1/2 Dragon... Or any number of monster races...

I'm curious what exactly did your players throw a fit about not being able to use from these books?

Dude seriously? It was like over 4 years ago for Unearthed Arcana!

For DMGII I think it was magic items of some type.. I have a player who is the ultimate power gamer type... He's constantly looking for new power builds.

Anyway is this ok? Will you accept I'm not lying here or do you need me to provide a letter of reference from my players indicating such events happened in the past? :P


Uhmm... I'm not trying to hurt your feelings (not even sure where that came from). So what exactly are your thoughts on why?

Crazy... here I thought that's what all my posts were trying to convey... my thoughts on why they'd moved away from stuff balanced by the DM saying no...

Guess I have an inability to type/think today. :D

I will try to summarize:

1. In the past some stuff was made that relied on either the DM doing extra work to include it, or saying no it won't be included.

2. Extra work is annoying- saying no makes people sad. :(

3. Dilemma!

4. Why not make stuff balanced so theres not a lot of extra work to use it, and more DMs have less evaluating to do?

5. Less work is good, saying yes makes people happy. :)

6. Gamers have more incentive to buy stuff because their DMs are more likely to let them use the stuff inside.

7. Gamers buying books makes WoTC happy.

8. Scribble has less work to do when he DMs, and can more easily help everyone have a good time so he approves. (He can, however, see why others might want the other stuff, and feels bad for them since they aren't getting something they want, but not THAT bad, since he is getting what he wants, and his selfish human nature makes him care more about his own wants and needs more then what happens to others at least when it comes to hobbies. In grade school he probably would have said.. NYA NYA, but now he is polite and feels bad for others. But not that bad as was previously mentioned.)


Why is it that some people often exaggerate beyond it being their own oppinion (as opposed to a real fact) that they somehow must use things from various books in D&D?

Huh? I think you might be reading too much into things here. I am confused.

I guess I'm so used to running 3.5 where I as DM say these are the books I am using in my campaign, and then listing anything from those books I disallow... that I haven't had the experience of a player showing up with some random, out of nowhere, game element and trying to force it on me. Of course if they did I would just say no or yes depending on my evaluation of it.
It's not "forcing." I think you're either reading too much into what I'm saying- or I'm not doing a good job conveying it?

I'll admit- I like keeping people happy. I game with my friends normally, so if someone approaches me with something that they are interested in, I'm most likely going to try to let them roll with it unless it seriously upsets the game in some way.

The evaluation part... That's the part that tends to annoy me. I'm already doing a bunch of work getting the campaign together, and keeping the game on track, and now I have to evaluate stuff, and keep it in mind when building future adventures?

This leads me to the dilemma mentioned earlier. I can either say no, or do extra work.

I would much rather have the elements be balanced so it's not as much extra work on my end, and I can more easily just say yes let's go with it. It makes running the game easier in my opinion.


I must say after reading your second paragraph, I find it strange that (especially with DDI) one of your playershasn't requested the hybrid rules, especially as you've had players who went through DMG 2 and Unearthed Arcana scouring for stuff to use.

I'm not currently running a game- haven't been since late November unfortunately. Real life has gotten in the way for now. :(


No need to be sorry, I didn't loose an element I enjoyed... I still have my 3.5 books (and the hybrid rules for 4e). Though I would like to see some more of these elements in 4e. Perhaps the Dark Sun Defiler rules will also be this type of game element.

Good to hear you didn't loose anything.

Possibly- the Darksun rules seem a little more on the balanced side though (from what I've seen so far.) Your trading one resource for an added benefit... Only in this case that resource is your friends. :P

With the added balancing factor of if you use it too much your friends will probably hit you. :P
 

@MrMyth: I never suggested this type of game material become core, from the beginning of my argument I held up Unearthed Arcana (a DM-centric book of optional rules for a DM to implement (or not) in his campaign, with accompanying advice and sidebars explaining the ramifications and effects) as my model for a similar 4e book.

In your post you've already said you wouldn't be against such a product... what baffles me are those that are against something like this book being published for 4e and citing anything from super strong-willed/whiny players who will force them to accept the material into their game (or force them to spend a long time saying no to the player)... to horrible DM's who will use the optional material to squash out the fun of their players and shatter the enjoyment of the game.

So basically I feel the message is... you shouldn't get your fun because I don't know how to/ don't want to have fun with it...even if it's in a separate optional book. Just seems like some pretty poor excuses that will probably stop 4e from ever catering to a wider number of playstyles.

I admit - it might seem an unfair stance, that we should demand such rules never manifest even if there is a way for them to help your game without causing problems elsewhere. But while theorizing an optional supplement is easy, the actual production might be more problematic.

As others have said - thus far, 4E doesn't have anything that really falls into that 'purely optional' category. Could you introduce such material without having players still expect to see it? Isn't one of 4E's underlying goals to make everything accessible, interchangible, core? I can certainly see the argument that breaking away from that goal could lead down a bad path for the game. I don't know if I'm sold on it, mind you - but I don't think it fair to dismiss such an argument as simply "complaints about whiny players and horrible DMs".

Even outside of that - let's assume they could produce such a book of house rules, a 4E Unearthed Arcana, without causing any problems at all for those who want to simply ignore it.

Would it be profitable for them to do so? Would the market be big enough to make it worthwhile? And would it be worth putting resources into that when they could instead have focused on a product that would actually be of interest to the majority of DMs?

I don't honestly know the answer to those questions. But I think they are worth asking. And to be fair, we've seen some smaller signs that WotC may be testing these waters - pushing boundaries with hybrid rules, and some of the material in the DMG2 (inherent magic bonus system, alternate rewards like legendary boons), the power boost for Dark Sun campaigns (themes), the Dragon article on legendary 'Drizzt' weapons and items, etc.

And I'm ok with that. If it ends up looking worthwhile for them, and they can present such material without it causing strife elsewhere, I'd be all for more of this - but I'd want them to take the careful approach and do it right. And like I mentioned early - I suspect you can get quite a bit of what people are looking for without having to truly break way from the system itself. So I think there are definitely options there - without needing to necessarily release an entire book of gamebreaking items.

Personally, I'd be a fan of seeing more optional house rules and ideas in the DMG3 (if it ever comes along), and from there seeing what demand there is for more.
 

@MrMyth: Ok, here's something I'd be curious to ask people... The Scales of War backgrounds are in the CB... and have been almost universally called out as unbalanced (against each other and against the later backgrounds, though I feel they are certainly interesting and quirky in their own way.)... yet they haven't been removed and haven't been changed. Personally in my campaigns they just aren't allowed (unless I decide to specifically use some or all of them)... but I mean does everyone else allow their players to select them? If not how do DM's stop their players from taking them since there is usually such a problem with this?

As to profitability, sheesh with the DDI giving almost everything away, IMO, this (and fluff) might be one of the few types of books that may still be profitable, since even if they did make the rules available in the CB (and they wouldn't necessarily have to since they're not "official")... the advice and ramifications would still only be in the book and many would probably want that advice and guidance.
 

Even outside of that - let's assume they could produce such a book of house rules, a 4E Unearthed Arcana, without causing any problems at all for those who want to simply ignore it.

Would it be profitable for them to do so? Would the market be big enough to make it worthwhile? And would it be worth putting resources into that when they could instead have focused on a product that would actually be of interest to the majority of DMs?

I don't play 4e, but one of its clear selling points to me is that the rule system does not vary much from table to table. Its "everything is core" philosophy, reliance of some on the CB, and minimal 3pp options, keep everyone on the same playing field. Very similar in my opinion and experience to the original DDM game.

A 4e-version of Unearthed Arcana might be worthwhile for some DMs and players, those that want to expand their game. Though I think the majority of players (including some DMs) would reject it. I would expect it to put more power in the hands of the DM. It would be saying "here are some options, use them or not, we don't care." I think the more options and house rules, the less likely the game would remain consistent across the tables. 4e to me is the Monopoly, Hero Quest, Stratego, or Axis & Allies of the RPG industry. A game I can rely on to be the same no matter the DM, regardless of his ability, competence, or ability to weave a story. Just my limited personal experience. :)
 

Hmmm, not for DM's who have players that trust them... which has always made me wonder, why play under a DM you don't trust?
I figure, if you're taking the time to run the game and have invited me to play with you... then I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt. I mean what's the worse that can happen... I realize this DM isn't right for me?
IMO, there is a big difference between a book like Complete Warrior... which is designed for Player and DM use (and thus IMO should be pretty balanced) vs. a book like Unearthed Arcana a book designed for pure DM use with notes and sidebars on how these optional rules can effect the game.
Trust, in the context of a DM, is that the DM has the best interest of the overall game at heart. Catering to a player's best interest can step all over everyone else's fun.
These comments all make assumptions about the role and power of the GM which are potentially controversial. They assume that the GM has a monopoly on deciding what rules are used for the game at the table. Related to that, they assume that the GM has a responsibility for deciding what rules are used at the table, and that this is part of the GM's responsibility to provide a fun game. They assume that in certain contexts rules can undermine fun by producing conflict among players, and that the GM, in helping to resolve those conflicts, is going to have to make choices about which rules and to be used at the table.

This is all very traditional for D&D, but 4e seems to self-consciously have moved away from this sort of understanding of the GM's role, towards something that is more akin to modern RPGs. Look at page 189 of the DMG:

As Dungeon Master, you wear several hats: storyteller, rules arbiter, actor, adventure designer, and writer. Some DMs like to add a sixth hat to that stack: rules designer.​

This makes it pretty clear what the core functions are of a 4e GM: to oversee the gameworld, to provide adversity for the PCs (in the form of encounters), to do the bulk of the narrative work for the RPG (describing what things look like, what is actually happening in the world as a result of action resolution results) and to make rules calls. It is not primarily to design the rules. The rules are presupposed.

If we take this a bit further, we can divide the 4e rules into 5 components: character build rules (levelling, power and feat acquistion etc), reward rules (XP, treasure, milestones), encounter building rules, action resolution rules (primarily combat and skill challenges), and game elements (powers, feats, monsters, magic items etc). Although the rulebooks don't say expressly who has responsibility for each of these, they contain some pretty clear implications.

It is taken for granted that the character build and action resolution rules will be as set out in the PHB and DMG (and when the rulebooks break those rules, as with psionics and hybrids, they give a lot of support to explain and integrate the new approach). Page 189 of the DMG, in talking about the GM being rules designer, appears mostly to be contemplating minor tweaks to the action resolution rules.

The game clearly assumes that GMs will be building encounters more-or-less along the lines set out in the DMG (for example, a lot of powers are only useful if the GM builds encounters containing interesting terrain), and that the reward rules will be applied more-or-less as written (for example, the maths relies upon enhancement bonuses and paragon paths rely upon action points). That said, the rulebooks also canvass a few different options for rewards (eg item-free enhancement bonuses, adding rituals into treasure parcels, relying more-or-less heavily on player wish lists for items, dropping XP in favour of an 8-to-10 encounter approach). But even though p 121 talks about varying the rate of advancement, this isn't really supported (eg there are no alternative treasure parcels for a game with slower XP advancement).

The biggest area of flexibility is obviously with respect to game elements used. Here, the rulebooks assume that the GM will be deciding what monsters and traps are used (and provide support for the GM to design new monsters and traps). They assume that the players will decide what races, classes, paragon paths, epic destinies, powers and feats are used (and provide lots of opportunities for players to buy new books with this sort of stuff in it!). Magic items are in a middle ground - players are assumed to control the introduction of some items (via rituals and wish lists) but the GM also has some control here (via treasure placement and artefacts).

These divisions of responsibility aren't arbitrary, either. If part of the game experience, for a player, is expressing him/herself through her PC, it makes sense that the player has primary control over introducing those elements. Conversely, if the GM's role is to provide adversity and narrate the gameworld, it makes sense that the GM has primary control over elements like monsters and traps. It equally makes sense that the GM is given more freedom of design - unlike a player, who typically identifies very strongly with his/her PC's interests, a GM does not identify his/her own interest as a participant in the game with the interests of his/her monsters, and thus the GM can be relied upont to build balanced monsters (provided sound guidelines are presented). Players, on the other hand, who have a standing temptation to overpower their PCs, are obliged to draw upon independently designed lists of game elements (and this also sells books!). Looked at in this light, the absence (for example) of magical research rules is a feature, not a bug.

Once the players design their PCs (following the character build rules), and the GM combines monster, traps and so on into encounters (following the encounter building guidelines), it is the function of the action resolution and reward mechanics to unite the players' PCs with the GM's situations so as to create a compelling fantasy gaming experience. It therefore makes sense that neither the players nor the GM is given authority over those rules - rather, the game designers provide them, with the implicit guarantee that the rules will deliver the promised experience. It is not up to the GM to unilaterally decide whether or not this guarantee has been kept - it is up to the table as a whole. Thus the GM has no special power to vary these fundamental aspects of the rules.

As I said above, D&D traditionally has a different attitude to the purpose of the rules and the role of the GM - in particular, the rules are generally seen as being simply a tool that the GM then uses to deliver the compelling fantasy gaming experience. In that traditional sort of approach, it is natural to give the GM more authority over the rules. That traditional approach also creates a lot of scope for player/GM conflict of the sort that Scribble and others are talking about upthread.

But 4e departs from this traditional model and adopts a more modern approach. Rightly or wrongly, it is premised on the assumption that if a GM and players follow the rules of the game, a compelling experience will result. In this respect it is like HeroQuest, Sorcerer, Dogs in the Vineyard, The Burning Wheel etc.
 

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