What would WotC need to do to win back the disenchanted?

[TheYeti1775]

Re: "rules aren't copyrightable" (as seen in some XP I received for post #345, pg23 of this thread)

That's basically true...as long as you don't reproduce them exactly...which is what pdfs of the original works would be.

IOW, while you can't prevent someone from creating an AD&D clone, you CAN prevent someone from simply reprinting and releasing the game books in their full form.

So, a lingering copyright issue with the older editions of the game vis a vis Gygax & Arneson, etc., could exist if WotC intended to sell unaltered pdfs of the original game books and didn't have the full rights to do so (as I was hinting at in that post). They COULD, however, rewrite the original books and include new art and release them without an issue on those grounds. (Allen v Academic Games)

That was my XP to you Danny. After all our disagreements on Copyrights you deserved the points.
That and I was busy catching up on 3 pages of new posts.

But really I would love to see all the extra posts deleted off this thread and have only those that actually address the OP.

What could WotC do to win you back as a customer. Everything else in this thread is off tangent and quite a disappoint as this thread started off so well.
Heck even I kept a level head in it.

 

[TheYeti1775]

Right- I was just speculating, raising that as a potential, as-yet unrevealed reason why WotC might be balking at releasing pre-3Ed stuff in digital form.

The only argument I have against that Danny is that they had already ran into it with the Dragon Mag CD they had out, which resulted in the Kenzer deal I believe. (Correct me if I'm wrong, have had a few tonight so brain isn't firing all cylinders right now.)

So they would already been well aware of that risk in prior edition stuff and the lawyers would have moved already to protect them on the works that they shouldn't be selling like that. The Kenzer issue happened well before the PDF sales as well correct?

 

[Herschel]

First, the exchange you've engaged in here is absurd:

Q: What would WotC need to do to win you back?
Innerdude: Make stuff I want to buy.
Herschel: Well, WotC doesn't want you to buy their stuff.

....

(1) WotC is stupid.
(2) WotC is deliberately turning down free money in order to spit in the eye of their (now former) customers.

That's what causes disenchantment.

The absurdity is your flaming accusations. It's not that WotC doesn't want someone to buy their stuff, it's that they have a current product line that not eveyone will buy (just like every other product line they've ever had). Their goal is to have as many people buy it as they they can, but that "it" is the current product.

That means not dumping resources in to older product lines. Time is money, money is money, bandwidth is money. They're not stupid nor being intentionally punitive to previous customers. It's a business decision. That doesn't mean they don't try to have lapsed customers become current again, but they're not going to make poor business decisions to do so.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

What could WotC do to win you back as a customer.

In my case, they didn't so much lose me as a customer as stop producing products I wanted or needed. I was never protesting or outraged enough to swear off their products, just disappointed in 4Ed's marketing and the game itself.

Because I wasn't protesting or outraged, as soon as I found out that the new guy in the group wanted to play 4Ed, I went and bought a bunch of books.

The only argument I have against that Danny is that they had already ran into it with the Dragon Mag CD they had out, which resulted in the Kenzer deal I believe. (Correct me if I'm wrong, have had a few tonight so brain isn't firing all cylinders right now.)

So they would already been well aware of that risk in prior edition stuff and the lawyers would have moved already to protect them on the works that they shouldn't be selling like that. The Kenzer issue happened well before the PDF sales as well correct?

I don't keep track of whose pdfs were released when unless I'm being paid!

But stuff gets made all the time without all the copyright issues being resolved. Remember the recent battle over The Watchmen movie? What usually happens is that some kind of percentage of the fees get redirected so that nobody has to go to court.

OTOH, if there is even an inkling of a problem, a very valuable IP may lay dormant while copyright issues get resolved. I'm blocking on it at the moment, but I remember reading about a soundtrack that has all kinds of people- both living and the representatives of the estates of some deceased persons- and bands- active and defunct- fighting for their piece of the pie. So it sits...and waits. And waits.

 

[Dice4Hire]

I can empirically demonstrate that it is far easier to plan adventures and create PC's for 4e than prior editions with DDI. I have access to every rule book published with the CB and with every monster created plus the ability to scale up or down levels with the click of a button, calculating hp, attacks, etc, in a fraction of a second. Therefore, I have more time available to game, or to pursue other parts of my life. To me that's better. Maybe everyone would rather spend hours and hours going through each MM and writing down stat blocks. Not me, I'd rather go outside and play some sports, go play video games, watch a movie, or play more D&D. YMMV of course.

What a long-winded way to say I like DDI.

 

[MerricB]

Depends on the sale agreement when Wizards bought the license from TSR. They might have that ability.

It is worth noting that the Avalon Hill game copyrights from their early days can be extremely confusing. Many games had several copyright holders, making their reprinting extremely difficult. Although Hasbro/Wizards own AH, they don't hold the copyright to every game AH created! In some cases, copyright was held by the game's designers and artists.

The most problematic copyright issue in recent gaming that I'm aware of is the "Up Front" card game, which MMP have been trying to reprint for several years now, but the legal issues around it are intractable enough so that it can't go ahead.

I'm pretty sure that both Gygax and Arneson relinquished (well, sold) their rights to D&D to Wizards/Hasbro back at the start of 3E, but I can't find a reference at the moment. (Anyone?) The legal status of other products I can't find. Suffice to say, I don't think Hasbro/Wizards actually have a problem with selling PDFs because otherwise they'd have a lot of lawsuits for their previous X years of doing so.

Cheers!

 

[ggroy]

I'm pretty sure that both Gygax and Arneson relinquished (well, sold) their rights to D&D to Wizards/Hasbro back at the start of 3E, but I can't find a reference at the moment. (Anyone?)

Scroll down to the Dave Arneson section.

The Kyngdoms • View topic - The Ultimate Gary Gygax Interview

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Nice link, but still a bit unclear: Arneson is mentioned as having royalty rights of some kind according to his original contract, and there is no detail as to whether the WotC offer paid him a lump sum for his rights or just a sweetening of royalties...or even which IP was covered (all or some?). We don't even know if there was a time limit to the rights that were transferred- if there was a time limit in his original contract with TSR with a reversion at some time in the future, and WotC didn't pay attention to that clause, they could be bound by that original time limit.

 

[ggroy]

Nice link, but still a bit unclear: Arneson is mentioned as having royalty rights of some kind according to his original contract, and there is no detail as to whether the WotC offer paid him a lump sum for his rights or just a sweetening of royalties...or even which IP was covered (all or some?). We don't even know if there was a time limit to the rights that were transferred- if there was a time limit in his original contract with TSR with a reversion at some time in the future, and WotC didn't pay attention to that clause, they could be bound by that original time limit.

In the out of court Arneson/TSR settlement, we'll probably never know for sure.

In the Adkison deals with Arneson and Gygax, we'll probably never know for sure either unless Adkison is willing to speak about it.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Exactly.