Is Greyhawk Relevant?

[the Jester]

I'm sure that many of us have played at some point or another in the world of Greyhawk. This was Gygax's world, home to some of the greatest classic dungeons in D&D. It is for that nostalgia factor that we hold it in such high regards.

Yet as time has gone on and the hobby has evolved, I have to wonder if it still holds up all these years later.

One of the questions I ask is why WotC would ever want to re-release Greyhawk. They might get some sales based on nostalgia, but what really sets it apart enough to draw in a new crowd? My fear on this is that, as a generic setting, it will be outshone by other generic settings, most notably the Realms. It doesn't offer the wide range of cultures that other settings do. There's nothing geographically or culturally that really sets it apart.

What?

Are you, er, familiar with Greyhawk?

IMHO it's much cooler than the FR, DL or any of the other "generic fantasy worlds" that are pretty much GH in drag anyhow.

Greyhawk has a VERY wide range of cultures, from the Barbarian kingdoms in the NE to the Arabesque Baklunish to the Amerindian Rovers to the Gypsy-inspired Rhenee to the racist empire of the Scarlet Brotherhood to... well, it keeps going, and even different nonhuman cultures are hinted at, sketched out or detailed- valley elven culture; the Grugach; Celene and Urnst; gnomes in camouflage; a demigod ruling an evil empire; another fallen empire where undead are sometimes the leading citizens; etc.

Geographically you have the Sea of Dust, the Barrens, the Land of Black Ice, the Sinking Isle, the Riftcanyon, the Nyr Dyv... I think there are plenty of distinctive and cool geographical areas in the Flanaess.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're looking for here- what is it you think sets FR apart as more relevant than GH? Because to my mind, it's all about taste. If you prefer a sort of Renaissance, high fantasy feel, you will likely prefer the Realms, whereas if you prefer a sword & sorcery Dark Ages feel, you'll prolly prefer Greyhawk.

 

[JohnRTroy]

Depends on what you mean by "relevance".

Greyhawk, FR, etc., are all settings, and as such they exist independently of either the vox populi (what's popular) and trends. There is no objective "evolution" of the hobby, from what I can see, just different trends. And I hate the term "generic" used to describe it. "Generic" just means that it's tropes and influences are common.

So yes, I think it has relevance in and off itself. And I think asking if it "holds up" is a loaded question, implying that the quality goes down as it ages.

I think the big problem is its ties to D&D. As a campaign setting it is tied closely to the fate of it's parent IP, D&D, and thus has had to change over time to fit it. So that lead to changes from 3e that started a trend, and now a lot of the "Proper Nouns" from GH can be found in all current D&D. Secondly, in recent years WoTC hasn't seen GH as something to support. When the RPGA took over handling it I knew things weren't going well. (I fear the same thing will happen with Forgotten Realms).

Also, I think over time older things have less relevance because of cultural impact. Older gamers might be jaded and looking for something that does not mimic the influences Gygax had, while younger gamers look for inspiration from other cultures and cultural influences. (Japan's Fantasy Anime/Manga/Videogames, current writers and authors of Fantasy Fiction, new genres like Steampunk). So, I think the popular conception is that it is a relic.

 

[El Mahdi]

...that are pretty much GH in drag anyhow...

Aaaaaaah! As soon as I read that I flashed a mental image of Mordenkainen in Drag! The Horror!

 

[Dragonhelm]

What?

Are you, er, familiar with Greyhawk?

IMHO it's much cooler than the FR, DL or any of the other "generic fantasy worlds" that are pretty much GH in drag anyhow.

Familiar enough to know that the FR and DL are by no means clones of GH.

I see where you're getting at with the geography and people, though.

Truthfully, I'm not even wholly certain what I'm looking for. Is GH something that would sell these days? Does it have a draw that the Realms or Pathfinder doesn't have? If it was updated to 4e, is there a place for all the 4e-isms?

Aaaaaaah! As soon as I read that I flashed a mental image of Mordenkainen in Drag! The Horror!

ROTFL!

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

*Shrug*

It's still my favorite campaign setting. To me, Greyhawk *is* D&D. No matter how much the game evolves, somehow at its core I will always see a ragged fellowship standing on a packed dirt road outside a little village called Hommlet, following the siren's call of adventure and rumors of adventure.

 

[Bullgrit]

It is for that nostalgia factor that we hold it in such high regards.

And the "old school" Greyhawk fans haven't burst in to rake you over the coals for saying the N-word?

Bullgrit

 

[Chainsaw]

*Shrug*

It's still my favorite campaign setting. To me, Greyhawk *is* D&D. No matter how much the game evolves, somehow at its core I will always see a ragged fellowship standing on a packed dirt road outside a little village called Hommlet, following the siren's call of adventure and rumors of adventure.

You rule. I'm playing in a OD&D Greyhawk megadungeon (monsters, gods, etc) right now. My DM runs another C&C campaign set in Greyhawk as well. Pretty relevant to all of us.

 

[Nifft]

Agree with Klaus but also think a lot of gamers do not know Greyhawk of old, they see it as their "dads/moms" campaign setting. It just need to be dusted off, a few things adjusted.

Like the names. IMHO many of the names are painfully bad, and naming stuff is half the work of making a setting for some of us.

But as bad as the location names were, the Wizard names were equally awesome, and have taken their (rightful) place in every setting's core spell list.

So: my favorite bits of Greyhawk have already permeated pretty much every setting.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Ariosto]

One of the questions I ask is why WotC would ever want to re-release Greyhawk. ... Does GH need reinvention? I would say yes. It needs to be set apart somehow.

There seems to be a lack of understanding here of the difference between "re-release" and "reinvent".

Why would I want another corporate reinvention when the very purpose of the folio (and the later boxed edition) is for personal invention?

If it's the classic, then guess what:

That sets it apart!

If demand for the classic is low, then the supply of originals can meet it.

If there is little demand for yet another "Greyhawk" product having nothing to do with Gygax, then I reckon it's just as well for Wizards to make stuff enough people actually do want to pay for.

 

[pawsplay]

That Greyhawk is so associated with a generic setting raises the question not, "Why Greyhawk?" so much as why everything else?