Is Greyhawk Relevant?

[JoeGKushner]

As I get older, I tend to go with the, "They'd only screw it up" philosiphy and if I want to use my older materials... I just use the old materials.

It'd be great to see a new Greyhawk with the high quality product that WoTC is known for. Hell, be great to see them license it out to Paizo as they have just about equal production values.

But as far as it's relevance? People just starting the game now never probably know that Vecan was for years if not decades just a hand and eye and that Ioun was just some floating magical items.

The game evolves.

 

[pawsplay]

The world will not be the same once gamers are no longer swapping "Head of Vecna" stories.

 

[Bullgrit]

I don't care about a PC's back story -- I'm more interested in the story made with the PC while playing the game.

This is a big reason why I like the World of Greyhawk so much -- so much of its back story was made by the original PCs while playing the game. The fact that so many of the NPCs of the setting were actual PCs in the original game, and the adventure locals in the setting were actual adventures in the original game. This is why Greyhawk is the best setting to me.

Its history wasn't just written, it was made by the DM and Players while playing the game.

Plus, D&D and Greyhawk came about at the same time. Greyhawk essentially *is* D&D; D&D essentially *is* Greyhawk. No other campaign setting is this way. Not even Blackmoor.

Bullgrit

 

[haakon1]

It doesn't offer the wide range of cultures that other settings do.

I disagree. There is much breadth and depth in Greyhawk's countries. And they resonate with real history, because Gygax put his background in wargaming and mythology into the cultures.

To some extent, of course, Greyhawk is a "build your own campaign" setting, with a lot left to the DM to interpret and fill in, but I've always found that a good thing.

 

[Philosopher]

As far as the idea of GH being a setting about war, I would have to wonder how it would then stand out compared to Dragonlance, whose history is defined largely by war.

As Klaus pointed out, the Greyhawk Wars were not a conflict of Good vs. Evil. Greyhawk is more complex (and plausible) than that. Some conflicts are more about Law vs. Chaos (Trithereon can and does come into conflict with Heironeous, say - and both are good deities), or other factors altogether.

I don't think all-out war is needed, or even wanted, but constant skirmishes are a must. The "Lawful Good" realms are right next door to "Chaotic Evil" and "Neutral Evil" kingdoms. A "world war" is too much of a modern concept, but centuries of border skirmishes, minor sieges and espionage can be as taxing as any single war.

Very good. I like there being tension in the air. Constant skirmishes but no all out war. That would work quite well.

 

[haakon1]

Agreed. What Greyhawk needs is someone with an appreciation of class sword & sorcery to bring out these aspects.

Those familiar with Gygax's original presentation of the setting will note that the threat of war was in the air. Perhaps it could be reset to beginning of the Greyhawk Wars, and the setting's schtick could be that war is being waged all around. This would be a change from classic Greyhawk being focused on the awesome dungeon crawls, but I don't think it would be deviating from the feel of Greyhawk too much - it would just be focusing on a specific aspect of it.

Reseting to BEFORE the Greyhawk Wars would be good . . . but realistically, I think moving on with the 3e version of Greyhawk is fine. Just have the silly Greyhawk treaty thing die, and have it be a world at war . . . which is pretty much what it was meant to be, I think.

That is, a world full of wars and skirmishes, but no means one overarching good v. evil conflict, a la the 2e version. That just never fit right.

 

[Orius]

To some extent, of course, Greyhawk is a "build your own campaign" setting, with a lot left to the DM to interpret and fill in, but I've always found that a good thing.

I think that that is both Greyhawk's strength and weakness.

Strength because it was created as a campaign setting back in a time when it wasn't uncommon for modules to have blank areas for the DM to set up on his own. That's kind of what Gary did with Greyhawk, he gave gamers a world with some basic details that they could flesh out themselves.

Weakness because settings like Dragonlance and the Forgotten Realms set a new standard for the campaign world, with more detailed locations and a metaplot. Greyhawk never had that, and when these things were added to the setting, fans wren't happy because it clashed with the developments in their own Greyhawk flavored homebrewed campaigns. Though the fallout from Gary's departure from TSR and some really weak late 1e Greyhawk modules probably did their share of damage, more so than Greyhawk Wars did itself.

Reseting to BEFORE the Greyhawk Wars would be good . . . but realistically, I think moving on with the 3e version of Greyhawk is fine. Just have the silly Greyhawk treaty thing die, and have it be a world at war . . . which is pretty much what it was meant to be, I think.

That is, a world full of wars and skirmishes, but no means one overarching good v. evil conflict, a la the 2e version. That just never fit right.

That sounds like the same family-friendly influences that had demons, devils and assassins yanked from the game at work again.

I don't think Greyhawk Wars are really going to be pulled from setting canon, especially given the work on the setting done in late 2e and early 3e that was better recieved. I think though the fan base was fractured seriously enough back in the late '80s and early '90s that the setting just may not be commerically viable anymore.

 

[Starfox]

Greyhawk has a VERY wide range of cultures, from the Barbarian kingdoms in the NE to the Arabesque Baklunish to the Amerindian Rovers to the Gypsy-inspired Rhenee to the racist empire of the Scarlet Brotherhood to... well, it keeps going, and even different nonhuman cultures are hinted at, sketched out or detailed- valley elven culture; the Grugach; Celene and Urnst; gnomes in camouflage; a demigod ruling an evil empire; another fallen empire where undead are sometimes the leading citizens; etc.

To me, Greyhawk is Fantasy Europe (and part of the mid east), mirror-imaged (west to east), and without the burden of RL-historical accuracy. The backdrop of Greyhawk is really deep, with the migration of its human peoples being a major part of the story. But I think this is also Greyhawk's weakness - it is a little more demanding than, say, the Forgotten Realms. Things are supposed to fit, to work together. They have to be integrated. FR is more of a patchwork. This makes GH a bit harder to use, but also a lot more rewarding in my book.

Also, I simply know it better than I know the FR.

 

[Ariosto]

I think that that is both Greyhawk's strength and weakness.

Commercially today, it's the kiss of death.

If a lot of people lined up to buy a reissue of the classic, valuing the extent to which it is a "build your own" framework, then they would not be signing up to buy a whole series of products. WotC would have to think of something different to sell next. People who more predictably buy the latest thing in a brand line are more desirable patrons. In general, people who spend more are more desirable.

More people who spend more is a doubly desirable demographic. Construction kits are not as popular as stuff done for you.

To whatever degree this is "just human nature", the portion of humanity catered to is a self-reinforcing thing. D&D for a while now has been presented as a matter of buying lots of books. Even a single of the hardbound volumes typical today -- even the original FR boxed set -- dwarfs the material in the old WoG boxed set. The selection pressure has been for people who are into that, people who like an encyclopedic game setting product that -- like an encyclopedia -- needs to be "updated" by purchasing supplements or replacements.

 

[vonmolkew]

To Olgar: hallelujah, brother!

I can still sit and stare at that map of Darlene's for hours, wondering what was going in some of those far off places.....