A Discussion in Game Design: The 15 minute work day.

[Doug McCrae]

If such cozy assuming is not dangerous, then the DM is unclear on an essential concept.

That D&D requires a large number of fights per day in order to balance casters with non-casters is a serious weakness. Not everyone wants that amount of combat.

Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't, but I don't think the system should require it. It greatly limits what it can do.

In short, hate the game, not the player (or DM).

 

[Ariosto]

It's the first, and only, time I've ever seen a wizard played as he's 'supposed' to be played, holding back, mostly just using a crossbow.

Using a crossbow??!
Does he yodel, too?
I'll eat the stars on my pointy hat before I'll go about pretending to be a mechanic or even a, pardon my French, warrior. Dignity of the profession, man, and conduct unbecoming! It sets a bad example, I say.

I suppose the cleric gets a missile weapon, too, so that she can also be played as she's 'supposed' to be played? Why not give her more attack spells while we're at it?

To be even handed, we must make the fighter a magician as well.

Why have the classes at all?

 

[Ariosto]

That D&D requires a large number of fights per day in order to balance casters with non-casters is a serious weakness.

It does not, or at least most D&Ds do not.

Even in your stipulation, two could do it -- and 2 is not generally considered "a large number".

If all your spells are useful only in fights, and there are NO fights today, then you are getting no mileage from your spells today.

(There is also, as I mentioned, the possibility that a given fight is more or less suited to the employment of this or that magic.)

Kill the idiots, and then see how "over powered" they look next to the tougher characters that are not dead.

When
(a) you're looking in the first place for something different than the original D&D game
and
(b) you've got something that's remarkably different, but in the opposite direction
then
(c) you've got a messed up situation, but it's not a flaw in D&D.

Anyhow, I think the subject of the thread is less the 'weakness' of any pre-4e D&D in itself than the 'strength' of a game someone wants to cook up (apparently starting with 4e).

 

[Dausuul]

Here's one possibility I've toyed with: Redefine "rest" so that instead of "a night's sleep," it means "a few days of R&R." And R&R costs money. Traditionally this money is spent on ale and whores, but other PCs might spend it on books and scrolls, or charity, or offerings to their gods. (Defining your particular brand of R&R is a nice little option to flesh out your PC.)

This doesn't work very well in 3E/4E (especially 4E) because of the hyperinflation that takes place as PCs advance. When a 4E character gets into epic tier and is using ten-thousand-gold-piece gems as pocket change, you must either let that character rest more or less at will, or claim that 25th-level characters can only relax and recuperate with astral alebeer and goldheart battlewhores.

On the other hand, if you were playing something more like Iron Heroes, or 4E with the inherent bonuses optional rule, I think it would be quite workable. It helps keep money relevant, it discourages the 15-minute workday, it adds a little personality to the PCs, and it's even got a reasonable degree of verisimilitude.

 

[billd91]

Agreed. Per day resources are an artefact of earlier editions.

They work in the dungeon, where many challenging encounters are close together, but not outside of it. Per session resources otoh would work in both a dungeon and non-dungeon environment and are thus generally a superior mechanic.

But per session is pretty much purely gamist. At least per day can argue at throwing a bone toward simulationism. When does it get regained? After you get a night's sleep!

You're not going to like everyone liking the per session gamist solution.

 

[Doug McCrae]

But per session is pretty much purely gamist.

Yeah. I think the problem with 4e is it's not gamist enough. Still a little bit of simulationism left. It must be destroyed!

 

[Ariosto]

Here's one possibility I've toyed with

It seems really to be just the opposite of what that fellow is after with his idea that pressing on should not make characters weaker. It gets pretty interesting, though!

Redefine "rest" so that instead of "a night's sleep," it means "a few days of R&R."

I see how the requirement of several days minimum would make it take longer even for low-level characters to replenish their spells. That won't get rid of your "15 minute workday", either. It'll just make it less frequent.

That's unless you decide that there's no guarantee of just one encounter per several days on par with Doug McCrae's per-day assurance above. Of course, the same solution is equally applicable to that case, or to any other period encounters can be per.

And R&R costs money.

Now you're cooking with gas! How do we get money? By pressing on!

This reminds me of a number of old games, including

(1) Arneson's account of early Blackmoor (find formula; acquire rare ingredients; practice making spell; get fatigued, and also use up ingredients; go get more);
and
(2) old Tunnels & Trolls (Energy points get recovered even without rest, but it takes cash to learn new spells -- and also to replace the armor that gets used up by taking hits.).

As a technical point, though, "rest" already does not mean "a night's sleep" in 1st ed. AD&D (and maybe not in 2nd either).

 

[Ariosto]

Yeah. I think the problem with 4e is it's not gamist enough. Still a little bit of simulationism left. It must be destroyed!

I don't think these terms are being used in accordance with Ron Edwards, because they are actually making sense!

I will point out again that "per session" penalizes players of
(a) more briskly moving sessions
and/or
(b) longer sessions.

Item (a) is ameliorated somewhat by the 4e rules' tendency to prolong fights (which are the 'encounters' that really matter here, eh?). Still, it hardly seems desirable to encourage foot-dragging to slow affairs further!

Considering item (b) may make clear that per x encounters really cuts to the chase and gets to the bottom of the matter without pussy-footing around kicking the bush and whistling "Dixie".

 

[Dausuul]

Now you're cooking with gas! How do we get money? By pressing on!

Yeah, this was the main idea. If you just make rest times longer without imposing some other limitation, it doesn't really accomplish much except make the incongruities more glaring when they occur. The focus was meant to be on "R&R," not "a few days."

I don't think these terms are being used in accordance with Ron Edwards, because they are actually making sense!

Oh God no. Please please PLEASE don't bring GNS/GDS/Big Model/Ron Edwards into this. Not even in jest, because someone out there is bound to take you seriously.

That stuff is as bad as edition wars for killing an interesting discussion stone dead and then stomping on its corpse.

 

[jgbrowning]

The 15 minute workday occurs when characters engage in an adventuring activity that drains them of resources in some way. This could be loss of health, expending of abilities, etc. Instead of continuing said activity, the character chooses to refrain from the activity in order to recover the lost resources. Done to an extreme, the character is said to only engage in adventuring activities for “15 minutes a day”.

I agree.

Ultimately to me, what defines this as a problem is the fact that a game system at its core, is designed to model archetypes. Since Dnd is traditionally a Tolkeinesque fantasy archetype, let’s consider it from that perspective. In many fantasy stories, the Hero will face countless challenges. Commonly, the hero will face one challenge after another. He doesn’t rest or stop, he keeps on fighting. He may face hoards of minions only to face his great nemesis immediately afterwards. Yet while realism would tell us the Hero at this point would be utterly exhausted and barely capable of fighting, often in the story he fights the villain with an even greater strength not yet seen.

A character that chooses to face danger again and again makes for a great story

And here is the only problem, IMO. The belief that D&D is designed to model archetypes and mimic narratives outside narration. It's designed to model archetypes (very roughly), but only in relation to a game, not a narrative.

It is the desire to mimic narratives that lead people to believe that the 15 minute workday is a problem. A narrative is what happens after the game is done and you tell someone what happened.

What if we made it so that a character was fully recovered after every encounter. Now a character is always at its maximum power no matter how many fights he goes through. We no longer have to worry about appeasing incentive 2, a player can act as heroically as he wants and never feel that his character is getting weaker. Problem solved right?

The problem is solved…but the answer creates its own set of problems. First of all, it cuts down on variety. If my character is literally reset every fight then things can get very repetitive. Second, we have to remember that for many people allowing their character to “nova” (using a lot of expendable resources in short order) is a way to feel that strength and power that is Incentive 2. And let’s not forget that another heroic archetype is when the hero “gives it all he’s got”. It’s hard to do that when you get everything you just gave right back 5 minutes later

Here the problem is solved nicely, but immediately discarded because it too doesn't allow mimicking another common narrative. There is no problem with a 15 minute workday. IMO, the problem is the desire to use the wrong tool for the wrong job. IMO, a complex game with many meaningful individual choices is a poor fit for a narrative outcome.

I'd suggest a different game other than D&D. Something like Engle Matrix Games, in which one describes the action that one wants and the more believable and better described, the better the chance the action happens. Using something like what Hamster Press produces, you have a higher likelihood of mimicking archetypal personas/actions/stories in a gaming environment.

joe b.