How Essentials and beyond is a ...zucchini...

[TerraDave]

Yeah but if MM is obsolete, it was obsoleted by MM2, months ago.

That has nothing to do with Essentials.

I think these sorts of issues have a lot to do with it.

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Actually no it wasn't, not by a long way. MM2 creatures while different in many ways, particularly in minions and solos didn't change monsters power structure and damage anywhere near as dramatically as MM3. MM creatures are obsolete because not only do they have hugely outdated powers, they have hugely outdated maths in all departments now.

As I've just used a bunch of MMI monsters updated to the new maths, I can say that if you don't want to buy the new product, adjusting the math is really easy... look at the errata, look at the damage, adjust the damage so it is the same as the erratta. If it is a solo/brute, also adjust the to hit.


Indeed, the biggest problem with MMI monsters is adjusting them so they are as interesting as other monsters... and for something like that, basically one does need either a new book or DM creativity (and effort) to change.

Myself, as primarily a DM (and not particularly interested in simplified classes), I can see myself buying perhaps 3 books:

1. Rules compedium - good to have a book with it all that I can bring to games.

2. The monster book - MMI monsters that are interesting to fight? I'm all in - though, a scan through before buying is necessary.

3. The shadow power source book - this one mostly due to curiousity, as it may spawn some NPC ideas. Again, a look through is necessary.


If you are primarily a player, I would imagine the impact is even less... one simply buys, after perusal, what interests you.

Indeed, I find the annology to zucchinni particulary apt, though unintended by the OP - zucchinni is a substitute for other ingredients, you use it when you want . Instead, one could use flour, or bananas or whatever (I'm not baker). Having a recipe with zucchinni doesn't prevent one from using exactly the same recipe with some othef functional substitute.


And yes, it is true, that some DMs out there might restrict their games to essentials only. That said, some DMs might restrict their games to primal only. Quite simply, given that my gaming group have been at it for a while, and given my choice of whom to game with, I don't see this as a huge risk.

Sure, new players may gravitate towards the essentials, but I don't see that as a bad thing. Either:
a) I'm unlikely to play with them, or
b) experience will give them the yen to try something more complicated, or
c) the essentials class is the perfect complexity for that player.


I can't see how any of the above is a negative.

 

[TerraDave]

Who said negative?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Keep on the Ponylands?
The Temple of Elemental Equestrian?
The Tomb of Horsies?
The Stallionless Citadel?

What about the classic TSR module, P2: The Ponycorn Oracle.

Excerpt:

6. THE PAVILION

A ponycorn lies at the water's edge. Further south stands a small pavilion. (See Area 3A Map.)

The pavilion sits at the edge of the lake, small and slightly raised on stilts. It does not appear to have been lived in for some time. The wood is old, and a few cobwebs hang across the windows. Curtains keep out the sun and block the view inside. The door is tightly closed.
The ponycorn sleeps because a huge sleep potion was put into the lake by a jealous nymph (who is neither happy nor wearing a sombrero). Anyone drinking just one cup from the lake must take a chance on being put to sleep if he is below 4th level. There is a 20% chance that any water carried away from the lake will not work (DMG p. 117). Mixed with the sleep potion was a duration potion. All who sleep stay so until they are moved away from the edge of the water and the shore; they will then awaken normally. Do not encourage the party to test the water. If they check the ponycorn, they will discover it has a very slight pulse. It is very sparkly.

The pavilion on the lake shore was built for the nymph's lover. The front door to the pavilion is not locked, nor is the back door. Party members going up the steps to the front door will step on a squeaky board. This alerts no one, but it was here to let Chloe, the nymph, and Evan, her lover, know if they were about to have unannounced guests. The only access to the back door is to go into the water and swim to the door.

BTW, I hear this one is being redone for 4Ed as the MiniDonkeyhorsicorn Oracle...

 

[AngryMojo]

BTW, I hear this one is being redone for 4Ed as the MiniDonkeyhorsicorn Oracle...

Ooh, is that before or after the Vault of the Donkeyhorse mega-adventure?

 

[TerraDave]

So we are getting Gencon intel...

The core books will reprinted when the time is right. Ok. I loose a point.

But a new classification for magic items and changes to the core races??

This is such a ....zucchini...

 

[TerraDave]

Note, I know we may not need another thread on this, but this one already exists, and I can post in it some more. And I have been planning this post for a while.

Well, we have learned some more things from previews and Gencon. Some things I said upthread might not be exactly right, depending, but I remain pretty confident in my original premise.

I will sum up.

Our …zucchini… is here.

Lets break this up by “newby essentials” and “new core”.

Newby essentials:
If you’re a new player, there is a whole new set of products for you. You don’t need the 2008 books, and I really wouldn’t recommend them. These new products contain a bunch of differences from the 2008 books. They have a certain degree of compatibility (more on that below), as did the various pre 2000 editions of D&D did with each other or 3.0 and 3.5 products did with each other, but you will also see many, many differences. This is a …zucchini… its a new, updated, upgraded, redirected, bunch of products. Maybe its a mini …zucchini… maybe its meant to be used with other things, but its certainly a …zucchini…

New Core:
Now essentials are compatible with other 4E books. How? If you compared with the 2008 books you will see hundreds of differences, including many, many core rules differences (DCs, skills, rules for mounts and flying, conditions…a lot of the stuff beyond the basic d20 stuff from 3.5). How are they compatible? Dozens of pages of rules updates, which have been accelerated this year (especially in May and July) to make core work with essentials.

And its not done: We look forward to:
-changes to PHB races
-changes to wizard encounter powers
-changes to implements
-changes to the classification of magic items
-possible changes to default DCs (again, I have lost track of this) and skill challenges (again).

This is on top of the changes of monster math which is major but not in errata for all relevant monsters.

This, this is our …zucchini…

But I can still use my 2008 books! Oh sure you can. You can just play 2008 4E. In a lot of campaigns, thats probably fine. Or, you can stay current with all these pages of errata, and tweaking monsters, sure you can. Or:

-Get the rules compendium.
-If you are a player, use that with the CB.
-If your are DM, use it with the DDI and maybe the DM Kit and Monster Vault.

These last two products might be worth dwelling on. They many not replace everything in the core books, but they act as replacements. They just look better. True, we don’t need them, but we don’t need the 2008 books either. But we may need to keep paying WotC with a DDI subscription.

So that’s my point. The …zucchini… has become a fait-accompli. And we are eating it.

Enjoy.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

And we are glad we are getting it... reprinted core books would be equally useful. Old rulebooks were outdated on day 2. The release patch for MM1 was already huge.

 

[Rex Blunder]

Did you mean: zucchini

Is part of the joke that you are intentionally misspelling it?

 

[MrMyth]

New Core:
Now essentials are compatible with other 4E books. How? If you compared with the 2008 books you will see hundreds of differences, including many, many core rules differences (DCs, skills, rules for mounts and flying, conditions…a lot of the stuff beyond the basic d20 stuff from 3.5). How are they compatible? Dozens of pages of rules updates, which have been accelerated this year (especially in May and July) to make core work with essentials.

And its not done: We look forward to:
-changes to PHB races
-changes to wizard encounter powers
-changes to implements
-changes to the classification of magic items
-possible changes to default DCs (again, I have lost track of this) and skill challenges (again).

The big reason I don't see anything squash-related with Essentials is that most of those changes only add to existing characters.

Your character built with the PHB races remains legal. They could have chosen a different ability score bump, but the existing choice isn't invalid.

Your character built to use multiple implements remains legal. They could use one implement for both classes, but using two seperate ones isn't invalid.

Your character built with PHB magic items remains legal. The DM has some new options for distribution, and we will see new items with a more detailed classification, but the existing items aer not rendered invalid.

Your character built with PHB feats remains legal. Some new feats are coming out that might be better options earlier, but your current feats aren't changing.

So... Wizard Encounter powers are changing. (Getting some boosts.)

One feat is getting relatively slight errata.

Some other unknown powers might receive 'clarification', which sounds more like simply tidying up unclear wording more than any actual changes.

And yes, we've seen a few key elements actually change - Infernal Wrath, Magic Missile. It does look like they are finally fixing the skill DCs and expanding page 42 into a more robust system.

The thing is, this is such a smaller scale than 3.5, that claiming they are a nigh-identical phenomenom (or fruit) is relatively absurd. This is far closer to 3.5's PHBII, which added various new options and builds for races and classes, and included updates on certain rules like polymorph effects.

Are changes being made? Yeah. But minor tweaking does not make for a full revision. The idea that there are required 'replacements' for any existing books, or a 'need to keep paying WotC for a DDI subscription' or that people need to 'get the Rules Compendium'... yeah, I don't buy it.

The Rules Compendium will be a useful tool, sure, to new and old players, with various advice and designer notes and examples and so forth. But I don't think it will even be required for entirely new players. The basic rules will be in the DM's book. Only if they want a more in-depth approach will they have to pick up the Rules Compendium, and suggesting that it is instead a vital tool to be able to play the game, for both new and old players, seems a pretty significant exaggeration.