D&D 4E Hints on Sandboxing with 4e?

[Neonchameleon]

Well, level 1 players would struggle to hit level 30 minions tbh.

I would argue for some damage resistance for higher level minions. That way you still don't have to track HP, but players cant just throw a stone at a minion and kill it.

So? Wouldn't stop me wiping them out with an expanded Orbmaster's Incendiary Detonation. (Strange things happen when the level is too different). Actually, that's precisely why you need the DR - or to find a standard monster ten or so levels lower.

 

[Pbartender]

A handy link from another thread: Schrödinger, Chekhov, Samus | The Angry DM: D&D 4E Advice with Attitude

 

[Jack99]

As a general rule, you should convert any minion >=5 levels above the party level into a standard monster.

Ex: Level 26 Lich Vestige Minion (2250xp) could be much better represented to a level 10 party as a Level 12 Lich Human Wizard (2000xp).

Wouldn't it make more sense to switch it one category up or down per 5 levels?

So a level 26 Lich Minion becomes a level 21 standard monster, a level 16 elite monster and finally a level 11 solo monster.

Okay, sense might not be the word I was looking for, but as a 4e-ism, I think it makes sense.

 

[keterys]

Depends. In this particular instance, those two creatures are already statted for you (why I used them as an example) and the xp value is almost identical, so depending what you're going for...

But, yes, a 20th level party shouldn't run into level 26 lich vestiges either

Honestly, I'm not really sure why a DM would _want_ to have set fights that they don't change at all, when you can just turn things into elites or minions into normals, or whatever, and get a scaling technique that still lets dice rolls pretty much work.

But eh.

 

[S'mon]

Honestly, I'm not really sure why a DM would _want_ to have set fights that they don't change at all, when you can just turn things into elites or minions into normals, or whatever, and get a scaling technique that still lets dice rolls pretty much work.

But eh.

I guess you guys don't do much rolling on random encounter tables, eh?

 

[KidSnide]

I do think PoL has design advantages over PoD when it comes to long-term play.

With Points of Darkness in a mostly civilised world, at very high level it becomes difficult to explain why the threats appropriate to Epic-level PCs have not already trashed the campaign setting. If the answer is "Very High Level Good NPCs stop them" - a la Forgotten Realms' Elminster & co - this makes the PCs feel surplus to requirements.

There is also a long tradition of games in which a previously "good" society is in danger of being trashed because the "Very High Level Good NPCs" have died, gone missing, and/or deteriorated over time. DragonLance is a classic example, and Eberron borrows somewhat from this set up. (Also, IMO, Forgotten Realms is best played with a non-canon continuum in which Elminster & Co are dead. YMMV.)

The primary advantage of this set-up is that you get the PC primacy of a PoL game, with the structure and civilization (i.e. the gameworld) of a PoD game.

-KS

 

[LostSoul]

I don't use minions unless they are non-combatants. If that doesn't make sense for a specific minion (like a lich vestige), then I don't use those minions.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

*this is not a natural approach to the game by most players as far as I can tell, and it didn't fit for me well at first, but my players argued that there is only 2 ways how an adventuring character can survive to higher levels. Luck or preparation. And you can't depend on luck all the time. After a short discussion I had to agree with them


Unbalanced encounters them selves could be bad / unfun / whatelse, but they could also be made entertaing and/ or memorable. These are only a few examples of many.

Hmmmm, sounds to me like you are describing the behavior of every 1e AD&D (and OD&D) party I've ever seen. At least all the ones that survived for any length of time. Pretty much all of them would get together, pool their cash, buy the most optimum equipment, and then hire some hirelings, pick up oil flasks, build travaises, easily assembled traps and blockades, etc. One group I remember, after a couple adventures where they picked up a bit of cash, rode around with a fortified and ballista equipped war wagon which they would use as a forward base.

This kind of forward planning and improvisation seem to have really vanished from the game progressively since then. The last 2e campaign I ran still had some of that going on but the players seemed not to want to bother as much when they discovered they had enough hit points and whatnot to survive with simpler tactics. 4e characters seem to start out at a level of toughness and with enough powers that the very same players today have done very little of this beyond buying a few alchemical items at low level.

I suspect it isn't too hard to emphasize and there are certain players that really get into that and will drive that kind of thinking. It certainly would be a wise way for the PCs to behave and valuable in a campaign where they could run into almost anything anywhere.

 

[S'mon]

Some preparation/planning is great, but the downside can be decision paralysis and overly-cautious play that drags everything out interminably. I also think that in 4e task resolution (combat or skill challenge) can take so long, it doesn't leave much time for prep/planning if you want to get a decent amount done. And 4e unlike 3e doesn't particularly reward prep - 3e was so hugely biased towards pre-buffing and first-strike that not prepping could be suicidal.

 

[S'mon]

There is also a long tradition of games in which a previously "good" society is in danger of being trashed because the "Very High Level Good NPCs" have died, gone missing, and/or deteriorated over time. DragonLance is a classic example, and Eberron borrows somewhat from this set up. (Also, IMO, Forgotten Realms is best played with a non-canon continuum in which Elminster & Co are dead. YMMV.)

I think if I were to try running FR it'd be (a) non-canon and (b) greatly toning down the NPC power levels. They could still fulfil their stated roles in eg the 1e Grey Box at half the listed levels. In the 4e FR this is facilitated by the Good NPCs being undetailed and the ease of using the Monster Builder to adjust the Bad ones.