A stat-boosting feat

[Yalım]

I know people are gonna kill me for this, but I'm posting this to see this forum's response. Here goes:

Improved Aptitude

Prerequisite: Minimum ECL 3

Benefit: You gain +2 to one attribute of your choice.

Special: You may take this feat more than once. Each time you take it, you must choose a different attribute.

-------

Alright, ground rules:

a) Nothing about "this is strong for an EPIC feat!!" because I know about Great X, and those feats are weaksauce. Don't rant about [Epic] feats here; they're broken anyways.

b) If you have a reason for it being "broken", I want a good explanation. And talk calmly. I've gotten enough crap for this from plenty of people who can barely offer up a rationale in between the huge chunks of flame spitting out of their mouths.

 

[Uder]

It's too good of a feat for non-epic levels. Sorry, but in many cases it's better than two or three existing feats.

For Strength, it's better than any feat that gives a base +1 to hit or damage. It's essentially Weapon Focus (all) and Weapon Sorta-Specialization (all) rolled into one.

For Dexterity, it's better than Dodge, or any feat that grants +1 to AC. Likewise for Reflex. It's Dodge + Sorta-Lightning Reflexes, plus Slightly-Improved Initiative all in one, with an across the board bump to most physical skills.

For Constitution, it's better than Toughness after level 3, better than Improved Toughness at every level, and includes half the bonus of Great Fortitude.

For Intelligence, it's better than any feat that grants a skill bonus, since it grants +1 to all Int-based skills AND grants +1 skill each and every level from then on (and retroactively in house-ruled and Pathfinder games).

For Wisdom, it's an across-the-board increase to perception skills and will saves.

For Charisma, it's a lot of skill bonuses, and improves the power of a lot of divine special abilities.

For all spellcasting stats, it beats spell focus, because you get the bonus to EVERY spell DC, not just one school, as well as bonus spells. This alone should convince you that it's unbalanced... a spellcaster who doesn't take this is a fool.

 

[HoboGod]

Oh, this isn't an epic feat? I thought that's what he was suggesting... now that I see the minimum ECL thing, yeah, this thing is way too strong. This is an untyped ability enhancement that stacks with everything, who wouldn't take this feat?

EDIT: And quite honestly, everyone who takes Great X at epic levels would just take this feat first, there's nothing in this description preventing that. Unless intended strictly for high-powered campaigns, the introduction of homebrew feats should balance with all comparable feats, not try to top existing feats.

 

[Eldritch_Lord]

Unless intended strictly for high-powered campaigns, the introduction of homebrew feats should balance with all comparable feats, not try to top existing feats.

Well, it looks like it's balanced with comparable feats to me. Looking at the list of feats to which it is superior:

For Strength, it's better than any feat that gives a base +1 to hit or damage. It's essentially Weapon Focus (all) and Weapon Sorta-Specialization (all) rolled into one.

For Dexterity, it's better than Dodge, or any feat that grants +1 to AC. Likewise for Reflex. It's Dodge + Sorta-Lightning Reflexes, plus Slightly-Improved Initiative all in one, with an across the board bump to most physical skills.

For Constitution, it's better than Toughness after level 3, better than Improved Toughness at every level, and includes half the bonus of Great Fortitude.

For Intelligence, it's better than any feat that grants a skill bonus, since it grants +1 to all Int-based skills AND grants +1 skill each and every level from then on (and retroactively in house-ruled and Pathfinder games).

For Wisdom, it's an across-the-board increase to perception skills and will saves.

For Charisma, it's a lot of skill bonuses, and improves the power of a lot of divine special abilities.

For all spellcasting stats, it beats spell focus, because you get the bonus to EVERY spell DC, not just one school, as well as bonus spells. This alone should convince you that it's unbalanced... a spellcaster who doesn't take this is a fool.

Weapon Focus. Dodge. Toughness. Spell Focus. Skill Focus. All of the feats it overshadows are among the weakest feats in the game. It's definitely not on par with any of those, but no feats should be on par with any of those.

But how does it stack up to some other feats? Improved Aptitude (Strength) vs. Power Attack: Power Attack gives +2 damage for -1 attack (or more), while Improved Aptitude gives +1 damage and +1 attack. Improved Aptitude (Intelligence) vs. Open Minded: Open Minded, one of the weak-but-still-worthwhile-sometimes feats, gives 5 skill points, so IA is actually behind for two levels if you take it as soon as possible, and for the level 5-10 range that lots of games stop in, it's a good but not overpowering feat. Improved Aptitude (Constitution) vs. Improved Toughness: Again, just slightly better than an average feat, putting it squarely in "good, but not overpowered" territory.

In short, the concept of a feat that improves ability scores is just fine, I think. To power it down just a bit and allay some concerns, I'd suggest that a clause should be added prohibiting you from taking it for your highest score, so it would be useful for shoring up secondary and tertiary abilities and/or bringing a slightly sub-par score up to a 10 or 11, but it wouldn't help you further boost your primary stat (thus removing the problem with casters taking this).

 

[Uder]

Well, it looks like it's balanced with comparable feats to me. Looking at the list of feats to which it is superior:



Weapon Focus. Dodge. Toughness. Spell Focus. Skill Focus. All of the feats it overshadows are among the weakest feats in the game. It's definitely not on par with any of those, but no feats should be on par with any of those.

But how does it stack up to some other feats? Improved Aptitude (Strength) vs. Power Attack: Power Attack gives +2 damage for -1 attack (or more), while Improved Aptitude gives +1 damage and +1 attack. Improved Aptitude (Intelligence) vs. Open Minded: Open Minded, one of the weak-but-still-worthwhile-sometimes feats, gives 5 skill points, so IA is actually behind for two levels if you take it as soon as possible, and for the level 5-10 range that lots of games stop in, it's a good but not overpowering feat. Improved Aptitude (Constitution) vs. Improved Toughness: Again, just slightly better than an average feat, putting it squarely in "good, but not overpowered" territory.

In short, the concept of a feat that improves ability scores is just fine, I think. To power it down just a bit and allay some concerns, I'd suggest that a clause should be added prohibiting you from taking it for your highest score, so it would be useful for shoring up secondary and tertiary abilities and/or bringing a slightly sub-par score up to a 10 or 11, but it wouldn't help you further boost your primary stat (thus removing the problem with casters taking this).

I think you're underplaying it. It's not Weapon Focus (longsword), it's Weapon Focus (anything I touch). It's not Dodge, it's Dodge (*everyone). It's not Toughness, it's "I Effectively Have One Larger Die Type, Oh And My Saves And Concentration Are Better Too" (I think that's a Mongoose feat). A flat ability bonus always gives more advantages than any individual feat could give you. This feat throws that on its head.

I wouldn't care if it overshadowed some feats that aren't part of the CO build hivemind, but it combines the benefits of several feats. In the case of a spellcasting attribute, it's a bonus to every school of spellcasting. No matter what you think of the 3.5 nerfing of spell focus, that's eight feats. Throw in Extra Spell, which it effectively gives, and it's nine feats. It makes anyone that has to take those feats (as prereqs, perhaps) feel like a sucker, which is always a sign of a badly designed feat.

As for limiting it to all but the highest ability - I know that if this feat existed in a campaign I was playing in I would game my ability placement to take advantage of it. I buy a 15 and a 16, the 15 goes in my spellcasting stat, the 16 in Con or some other secondary but important stat. Come 3rd level my spellcasting stat goes to 17, then at 4th it goes up again.

 

[HoboGod]

To power it down just a bit and allay some concerns, I'd suggest that a clause should be added prohibiting you from taking it for your highest score.

That's nowhere near enough. It's an untyped bonus to an attribute, something which affects so many core uses. Raising even one stat is a godsend. Either it should only raise those attributes for explicit functions (like skill checks) or it should be a typed bonus, something that doesn't stack with an enhancement bonus (if a lower level feat) or inherent bonus (if a higher level feat).

 

[Deset Gled]

Another point of comparison:

Wish is the most powerful (non-epic) spell in the game. You would have to cast Wish twice to get a +2 bonus to any attribute, pay a cost 10000 XP, and even then the bonus would be Inherent (not untyped) and could only get you a max bonus of +5 (this feat is unlimited).

I think this is the most overpowered feat I have ever seen suggested, excluding joke feats.

 

[radmod]

I think you're underplaying it. It's not Weapon Focus (longsword), it's Weapon Focus (anything I touch). It's not Dodge, it's Dodge (*everyone). It's not Toughness, it's "I Effectively Have One Larger Die Type, Oh And My Saves And Concentration Are Better Too" (I think that's a Mongoose feat). A flat ability bonus always gives more advantages than any individual feat could give you. This feat throws that on its head.

Or to put it even more directly comparatively:
Would you rather have Lightning Reflexes giving you +2 to Reflex Saves
Or +2 to Dex.
Sure you get only +1 to Reflex, but you also get +1 to AC, attack (if you're finessing), and a host of useful skill check bumps.

In 2e I always threw in magic items that gave permanent ability boosts. The smart players always forwent the 'cool' magic items and went for the ability boosts. Eventually, everyone in my group started doing the same thing.

 

[Eldritch_Lord]

I think you're underplaying it. It's not Weapon Focus (longsword), it's Weapon Focus (anything I touch). It's not Dodge, it's Dodge (*everyone). It's not Toughness, it's "I Effectively Have One Larger Die Type, Oh And My Saves And Concentration Are Better Too" (I think that's a Mongoose feat). A flat ability bonus always gives more advantages than any individual feat could give you. This feat throws that on its head.

And when was the last time you saw anyone take WF, Dodge, or Toughness as anything other than a prerequisite feat? IA (Constitution) is Improved Toughness (an average feat) plus 1/2 Great Fortitude (half of a weak feat) plus 1/3 Skill Focus (Concentration) (one-third of a weak feat), making it good--great, even--but not, I think, overpowered. IA: Str, Wis, and Cha come out weaker than that, Int possibly on par, and Dex a bit better, but even IA: Dex would only come out around Shock Trooper or Divine Metamagic level, which are excellent feats but not actually broken.

I wouldn't care if it overshadowed some feats that aren't part of the CO build hivemind, but it combines the benefits of several feats. In the case of a spellcasting attribute, it's a bonus to every school of spellcasting. No matter what you think of the 3.5 nerfing of spell focus, that's eight feats. Throw in Extra Spell, which it effectively gives, and it's nine feats. It makes anyone that has to take those feats (as prereqs, perhaps) feel like a sucker, which is always a sign of a badly designed feat.

On the contrary, anyone having to take bad feats as prereqs is a sign of a badly designed PrC. If you make a very powerful PrC, you shouldn't balance it by requiring Skill Focus (Basketweaving), you should balance it by making it balanced. Most casters will have better things to spend their feats on than Spell Focus and Extra Slot (unless they're going for Archmage or are specifically building to try to make their save DCs ridiculously high), so again, it's not invalidating nine top-tier feats, it's invalidating nine feats that are kinda sorta okay to take if you need them for prereqs or you don't need any other feats right now.

As for limiting it to all but the highest ability - I know that if this feat existed in a campaign I was playing in I would game my ability placement to take advantage of it. I buy a 15 and a 16, the 15 goes in my spellcasting stat, the 16 in Con or some other secondary but important stat. Come 3rd level my spellcasting stat goes to 17, then at 4th it goes up again.

Granted, if you're using point buy this becomes a lot better because you can do exactly that; I'm looking at this from the perspective of rolled stats, where you're less likely to have your highest two stats within one point of each other and where you're more likely to have a low score you'd want to shore up.

That's nowhere near enough. It's an untyped bonus to an attribute, something which affects so many core uses. Raising even one stat is a godsend. Either it should only raise those attributes for explicit functions (like skill checks) or it should be a typed bonus, something that doesn't stack with an enhancement bonus (if a lower level feat) or inherent bonus (if a higher level feat).

Good point; I hadn't considered the type of bonus. An enhancement bonus would work just fine for balance purposes, though since enhancement is usually associated with magic another type might make more sense.

Another point of comparison:

Wish is the most powerful (non-epic) spell in the game. You would have to cast Wish twice to get a +2 bonus to any attribute, pay a cost 10000 XP, and even then the bonus would be Inherent (not untyped) and could only get you a max bonus of +5 (this feat is unlimited).

I think this is the most overpowered feat I have ever seen suggested, excluding joke feats.

Or, looking at it another way, you're spending a feat slot to buy a headband of intellect +2 or gloves of dexterity +2 and so forth. You get about 700,000 gp over your career but only 7 feats, so would you rather give up one feat slot or 4000gp? The prereq, then, should probably be moved up to ECL 5+, where the cost of the [item] of [attribute] +2 is less than half your WBL.

 

[Uder]

And when was the last time you saw anyone take WF, Dodge, or Toughness as anything other than a prerequisite feat?

August 29th.