"Whenever you hit an enemy"?

[malraux]

Yeah, but the only reason for adding damage to that third category is game balance, because there's no other way attacking something and dealing damage to them but still not hitting them makes any kind of narrative sense. "Not breaking things" is the only reason these powers aren't considered hits. It's perfectly balanced and absolutely ludicrous.

In a narrative sense, it is a hit. But in the sense of penetrating a target's defenses, it isn't a hit. Thus all the bonus stuff you get from penetrating those defenses doesn't apply. It's no more ludicrous than Reaping Strike doing damage on a miss.

 

[jdrakeh]

Yeah, but the only reason for adding damage to that third category is game balance, because there's no other way attacking something and dealing damage to them but still not hitting them makes any kind of narrative sense. "Not breaking things" is the only reason these powers aren't considered hits. It's perfectly balanced and absolutely ludicrous.

But why fixate on this one thing? D&D has tons of things that make absolutely no sense in terms of game world physics and has had tons of things that make no sense in terms of game world physics for decades. Hit Points, as somebody already mentioned, come to mind. Falling hundreds of feet and walking away relatively unharmed? That's been a D&D-ism since the beginning. It just seems so weird to nit pick this one thing (i.e., whether a MM attack hits or not) when D&D, as a game, has a long history of rules that make absolutely no sense in terms of game world physics.

 

[Kurtomatic]

It's much, much simpler than that. The game needs a term for the successful outcome of an attack roll. Instead of repeating the phrase "successful attack roll" fifty-bazillion times, they decided to use the word 'hit' as an official rules term for that outcome. Perhaps they could have chosen a better word, but nothing obvious comes to mind. I don't think this choice is any more ludicrous than intentionally conflating a game term with it's general language meaning.

As an aside, Shadowrun used the term 'success' constantly to describe a die roll that met or exceeded a target number, but the current (4th!) edition has now switched to the word 'hit'. Since checks in SR4 now often require a minimum 'hit' threshold, the word 'success' might induce the same kind of confusion faced in this thread. However, when a player says "I have three hits on my Perception check", nobody pretends there's an attack involved either.

Even in the older editions, if a player told me he had "one success", and I said that wasn't enough to achieve the desired result, no one was going to sqeal like a stuck pig and claim the word 'success' meant what it meant, and I was cheating them of their just reward. On the other hand, maybe somebody did squeal like such, and thus they've switched to 'hit'.., which appearently has its own baggage to live down.

 

[TarionzCousin]

Just know that utterly failing to back up your own assertions when calling for others to do so means that few people here will take anything you have to say seriously.

Do you have anything to backup this assertion?

 

[Minifig]

There's a few feats that are worded with "whenever you hit an enemy", and I want to know if that refers only to the target of an attack, or also those enemies who are hit by "splash damage".

For example, I have the Mark of Storms feat with the feature "Whenever you hit an enemy with a thunder or lightning power, you can slide that enemy 1 square." I then use the Warden At-Will Tempest Assault with "Target: One creature" and "Hit: 1[W]... and one enemy within 2 squares of you that is marked by you, other than the target, takes thunder damage equal to your Constitution modifier."

To my understanding in conventional wisdom (and standard DM D&D rules) "you hit", refers to you yourself or your primary spell hits, not your splash aka blast damage, it has to specify splash aka blast damage and what the implement your using says..

A good example of this?

The Sorc power Prime The Fire:

2d8 + Charisma, Area burst 1 within 10 squares.

You hit a primary target within ten squares, but it bursts out and hits everything with splash (*aka BURST*) damage, within one square.

IF it says "whenever you hit an enemy", the first initial enemy targeted, not those affected by the burst damage are the ones that are affected by the "whenever you hit an enemy" modifier.

But as Prime The Fire says you have to use an implement with it. If the implement says it has a 'when you hit with' it modifier, than it's safe to assume that yes, it does count even for your splash/burst damage however, if it does not, it is the target you hit as your primary target and none others.

Does that make any sense?

 

[the Jester]

To my understanding in conventional wisdom (and standard DM D&D rules) "you hit", refers to you yourself or your primary spell hits, not your splash aka blast damage, it has to specify splash aka blast damage and what the implement your using says..

A good example of this?

The Sorc power Prime The Fire:

2d8 + Charisma, Area burst 1 within 10 squares.

You hit a primary target within ten squares, but it bursts out and hits everything with splash (*aka BURST*) damage, within one square.

IF it says "whenever you hit an enemy", the first initial enemy targeted, not those affected by the burst damage are the ones that are affected by the "whenever you hit an enemy" modifier.

Sorry, this is not correct.

Your scenario holds true when the power reads something like "2d8 + Charisma modifier damage, and each enemy adjacent to the target takes 5 damage."

However, an AREA attack targets each creature in the area (unless otherwise noted). There's no "primary target" in this case.

The key question is: Did you roll to hit that enemy? If so, you may have "hit" the enemy; if not, you may have "effected" the enemy.

 

[Minifig]

Sorry, this is not correct.

Your scenario holds true when the power reads something like "2d8 + Charisma modifier damage, and each enemy adjacent to the target takes 5 damage."

However, an AREA attack targets each creature in the area (unless otherwise noted). There's no "primary target" in this case.

The key question is: Did you roll to hit that enemy? If so, you may have "hit" the enemy; if not, you may have "effected" the enemy.

No the primary target is the one you're targeting.. with the power at first.

If you rolled to hit that enemy, that is your primary target.

If you roll to hit an empty space, then it becomes splash damage and therefore loses it's effect unless the implement says otherwise.

Make sense?

 

[the Jester]

No the primary target is the one you're targeting.. with the power at first.

If you rolled to hit that enemy, that is your primary target.

If you roll to hit an empty space, then it becomes splash damage and therefore loses it's effect unless the implement says otherwise.

Make sense?

I am not sure where you are getting this from.

Look at the target line:

Target: Each creature in burst

That tells you explicitly who you target. Some powers do indeed specify a primary target and secondary targets, but this one does not, and in those cases, you are still 'hitting' if you successfully roll to hit. Close and area attacks usually (but not always) target multiple creatures in their blast or burst.

Area of Effect: An area attack creates an area of effect, usually a burst or a wall, within range. An area attack affects certain targets within its area of effect, which has a certain size. An area attack’s area of effect, range, and targets are specified in its power description.

Origin Square: You choose a square within an area attack’s range as the attack’s origin square, which is where you center or start the area of effect. You need line of effect from a square in your space to the origin square. For a target to be affected by an area attack, there needs to be line of effect from the origin square to the target. You don’t have to be able to see the origin square or the target, and concealment between the origin square and the target doesn’t apply.

Multiple Attack Rolls but One Damage Roll: When you make an area attack, you make a separate attack roll against each target in the area of effect, but you make a single damage roll that affects all the targets. A Large or larger creature hit by an area attack is affected only once by the attack, even if multiple squares of the creature’s space are in the area of effect.
If you’re using a projectile weapon to make an area attack, you need one piece of ammunition for each target, and if you’re using thrown weapons, you need one for each target.

Provoke Opportunity Attacks: If you use an area power while adjacent to an enemy, that enemy can make an opportunity attack against you.

Note that "primary target" is not referenced at all in the rules for area attacks, nor does it exist as an entry in the Compendium.

 

[malraux]

No the primary target is the one you're targeting.. with the power at first.

If you rolled to hit that enemy, that is your primary target.

If you roll to hit an empty space, then it becomes splash damage and therefore loses it's effect unless the implement says otherwise.

Make sense?

Yeah, this is very wrong. When you attack with an area attack that targets each creature in the burst, each creature in the burst is your target. There's not a damage type called splash damage, though a line that says each adjacent creature takes 5 acid damage or something similar is clearly analogous to splash damage. Regardless, area bursts are not like that at all.

 

[DracoSuave]

To my understanding in conventional wisdom (and standard DM D&D rules) "you hit", refers to you yourself or your primary spell hits, not your splash aka blast damage, it has to specify splash aka blast damage and what the implement your using says..

See above for things the books don't say or even hint at. Splash damage is not a game term in D&D4th edition, even tho there are powers that approximate the concept.

A good example of this?

Acid Arrow!

The Sorc power Prime The Fire:

Crap!

2d8 + Charisma, Area burst 1 within 10 squares.

You forget the target: line, which is mentioned above. All enemies in burst.

Every enemy in that burst is a primary target.

You hit a primary target within ten squares, but it bursts out and hits everything with splash (*aka BURST*) damage, within one square.

No rule in existance requires that the point of origin for any area burst be a creature. Please refer to pages 271 and 272 for instructions on how to resolve powers with the Area attack-type, and with range burst x in y.

IF it says "whenever you hit an enemy", the first initial enemy targeted, not those affected by the burst damage are the ones that are affected by the "whenever you hit an enemy" modifier.

Except the power does not work this way, so this interpretation is meaningless.

Did you roll attack dice against them? Yes. Did you succeed against their defense? Yes. You hit them. Enjoy your hit-triggered effects on said target.

But as Prime The Fire says you have to use an implement with it.

Minor correction. The Implement keyword does not require you have an implement to use that power. It says you -may- use an implement you are proficient in, and apply its enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls.

If the implement says it has a 'when you hit with' it modifier, than it's safe to assume that yes, it does count even for your splash/burst damage however, if it does not, it is the target you hit as your primary target and none others.

If the implement says that it has a 'when you hit with it' ability, then you can use it whenever you hit with a power. It does not matter if it's the first, second, third, fourth, or fiftieth target you hit this round. It does not matter if it's in the center, one square to the side, or at the very edge of the burst. The ONLY thing that matters is: Did you hit it? If yes, process ability, if no, do not process ability.

Does that make any sense?

No, because this idea that you're putting forth doesn't actually match what the power does. The power does something completely different than what you describe. What it does is it selects an area (a creature does not need to be in the center of that area) and it attacks every creature in that area. With fire. And hit or miss, every creature targeted by it takes damage if it attacks before your next turn. And because it is an implement power, every damage roll in that power adds your enhancement bonus. And any creature you hit applies any 'when you hit' effects. And any creature you miss does not have those effects applied.

What YOU are describing is something like Acidic Implantaiton (PHB2, Sorcerer Attack 5) which IS an attack against a single primary target, that follows up with secondary attacks against secondary targets.

Guess what? You're still attacking those secondary targets. Guess what? You're still hitting or missing them. Guess what? Those hits totally count for effects that trigger on hits. Why? Cause you hit. Those effects don't CARE if it's the first, second, or ninth creature you've attacked... they just care if you hit.

That said, there are times where 'splash damage' does not involve hitting or missing. Those won't involve attack rolls... it'll just say 'and do damage to all adjacent creatures' or it will say 'Effect: Deal blah damage to adjacent blah' or whatever. They won't involve making attack rolls against them, so you can't hit nor miss them. You only damage.



I think I get where the confusion lies... if you have a hit line, it will often say 'Hit: The target takes so and so damage' even for multitargetting powers. This is for consistancy. You process the Hit line for -each individual target hit-. As an example:

Cylcone of Restoration Spinny Healer Dude Attack 20
Daily - Divine, Healing, Weapon
Standard Action - Close burst 1
Target: Each enemy in burst
Attack: Strength vs. AC.
Hit: 2[W] + Strength modifer damage, and an ally within five squares of the target may spend a healing surge.
Effect: The target grants combat advantage. All allies within six squares of you gain temporary hit points equal to your Wisdom modifier.

If you hit three enemies with this power, that means that each enemy is hit, each triggering your hit-related triggers, and more-over, each enemy hit also causes an ally to spend a healing surge. 3 hits, 3 healing surges. This is because you process the hit line once per each enemy you hit. Then, yes, the effect says 'The target' but it is always assumed that 'The target' can refer to multiples or singular targets, so long as the target line of the power is satisfied.

Note that "primary target" is not referenced at all in the rules for area attacks, nor does it exist as an entry in the Compendium.

Primary Target does still exist in the game, however. But... it's related more to powers that have multiple attack 'phases' like Force Orb, that has a secondary attack. But, if you have an ability with a Primary attack, then you're pretty much guaranteed a secondary attack.