Instant Friends

I don't like the power, mainly for several reasons. First because of it's openness: I can see how people that argue that the power is and isn't an "autokill" for social challenges are both right. I wouldn't trust a close friend with my car, but know people who would. Many would have kicked House in the nuts long ago, but Wilson continues tolerating him, and so on. How friendly does the spell make you, exactly?

Second, it's inelegant in it's presentation. I feel it akward and not related with the general rule's framework; it should interact with the social skill rules, nstead of byassing them with an entirely new mechanic.

Third, as a personal feeling, I don't think social challenges should be trivialized by spells or abilities. IMHO, there's a difference between flying to the top of a cliff or sneaking invisibly past a guard to convncing something or gaining his trust as those are generally "the" roleplaying spot of the adventure or the session. Instant Friending someone seems to me as dry and unsatisfying as saying "I Diplomacy him into helping"
 

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I thought I saw "A skill challenge shouldn't be something that can be resolved in a single check, Instant Friends resolves something with a single check, therefore anything it resolves shouldn't have been a skill challenge."

Ok, let's rephrase that a bit for what I'm actually saying:
-A Skill Challenge shouldn't be something that can be resolved in a single check.
-Any challenge that Instant Friends can actually solve on its own is a situation that already is simple enough it would have been more appropriate as a single Diplomacy check than a Skill Challenge.

The party must convince a suspicious, unfriendly merchant, to allow them to secretly accompany his carravan, so they can draw out the band of brigands they're after. The merchant has a rival thinks this could be a plot of his to sabotage his business, and doesn't believe in the threat the brigains pose. The players must provide proof that the threat is real, that they can handle it, and that they aren't in the pay of his rival. But, if one of the adventureres is a trusted friend - no problem!

No problem... bringing along that trusted friend. In a normal skill challenge, would each PC have to convince the merchant of their worth? Why wouldn't that be the same case here - a free success or two as the Wizard becomes his friend, but the rest of the challenge remains for the rest of the party. After all, a trusted friend simply vouching for the rest would be asking the merchant to bring along 4-5 possible saboteurs on a valuable caravan trip... and thus, asking him to 'risk his property', which Instant Friends doesn't do.

Also, 1d4 hours later, he kicks them all out of the Caravan.

The party must convince a very powerful, capricious fey to tell them of a secret way into a castle in the feywild - and, incidentally, not kill them as it is sadistic when bored. The DM intends that the party find ways to 'entertain' the creature (intimidate to tell a scary ghost story, bluff to tell a hillarious joke, accrobatics to juggle, etc), amusing it enough that it wants to see what will happen should they get inside. But, hey if it likes and trusts one of the characters...

Information gathering does seem to be the strong part of the power. I'd imagine the challenge would become convincing the fey to let the wizard leave - a sadistic, powerful and capricious fey might want to hold on to his newfound friend, rather than let it go off into danger. So now they have to entertain him just to get him to let their friend go.

Also, this seems like the sort of place where Instant Friends could be really dangerous to use. The risk of the fey saving against it, recognizing what you've done, and being upset would seem pretty significant.

the party needs information about the criminal underground, and they have a snitch in custody. But, he's terrified - of the PCs, the crime boss, just about everything, really. The PCs must not just convince him of their sincerity and he rightness of talking, but convince him they can protect him. If only they had someone he trusted....

...they wouldn't have any benefit at all. You've already said the core of the challenge is that he fears telling them anything could get him killed. Instant Friends specifically says you can't ask your friend to risk his life. The challenge remains the same - convince him that helping you isn't a risk. Maybe the power gets you a success or some bonuses, but letting it win the challenge is outright ignoring how it works.

The party needs access to the archives of a temple. The archivist is a cranky fellow at best, and strongly disaproves of adventurers on general principle, prefering the company of his friends in the local intelligencia (with whom he often trades rare books). But, he's known to be susceptible to bribery and curiosity, both. He also has the temple's Avenger guards to defend him if anyone tries anything. The DM envisions a series of diplomacy or bluff checks, a cash bribe, maybe even a side quest to acquire a rare book, in return for what they need.

If the Avenger guards are around, I imagine they'll get upset when they see the party enchant their boss.

But, actually, this feels like one of those flawed skill challenges I talked about earlier. The goal is too simple. What happens if they simply present him with a forged note from his superiors to let them pass? What happens if they disguise themselves as people with access, and just walk in? Use a ritual or power to find an unwatched way in?

The fact the DM is already ok with the PCs bypassing the challenge by turning over some money is - at least to me - a sign this doesn't need to be a full skill challenge in the first place. Make a Hard diplomacy check, or an Average bluff check, or give him some cash, or go on a minor quest for a book. This just doesn't seem robust enough as it is to need the full framework of a challenge.

The party is taken prisoner by the kobold minions of a dragon, and taken before it as 'sacrifices.' The kobolds obey the dragon unquestioningly, so only the Dragon's opinion of the adventurers matters. The party needs to escape with their skins, but the dragon is canny and untrusting, by nature, but greedy. It might be prevailed upon to let the party go in return for a sufficient bribe and more to come, if it can be convinced to trust them.

We again run into the risk of trying and failing to enchant a powerful creature that has your life in its hands. But beyond that - again, the dragon will probably gladly release its friend the Wizard. But it certainly won't freely turn over its property (the other PCs) to him! It might lower the asking price for them, but they'll still need to convince it to let everyone else go, and that the rest of the group can be trusted.

The party come accross a village that has been raised to the ground. There is one terrified, near-catatonic survivor, a small child. He knows who destroyed the village, what powers they used, and where they headed. But, he is far too terrified to so much as converse, and everyone he knew or trusted died before his eyes. The DM envisions a series of heal checks to help the boy recover physical, social checks to win his trust, and a key History check or two to come up with facts about the village that might make them seem more familiar and normal to him, snapping him out of it enough to answer their questions.

And so Instant Friends will bypass the social checks needed. There is no reason why you wouldn't still need the Heal checks, along with knowledge checks to direct the questions where you want them to go.

OK, so there's a few samples.

And, in general, I think they show why you are overestimating the danger of this power. The big things to keep in mind:
-Only lasts 1d4 hours.
-Subject won't risk life or property.
-Only makes the caster the friend, not the rest of the party.

Most challenges involve something that goes beyond those requirements.

From the above examples, only two seem like Instant Friends could actually solve them. One of them, the archivist, seems readily bypassable in plenty of other ways. So that just leaves the fey - a situation where using Instant Friends is risky, and the DM has options to alter the skill challenge is they really want it to happen.

In the end, I do still think there are challenges it can help with, mainly information gathering ones. But in most cases, I think 'help' is the operative word - I see few where it will resolve everything the challenge needs, rather than simply help with some portion of it.

Now, it is true that a utility like Arcane Gate can bypass a skill challenge like "climbing to the top of a 50' cliff while being harrassed by stirges." But, it /is/ a 10th level utility, and climbing a modest distance isn't exactly a challenge for most 10th level characters, anyway. Similarly, a 'trek across a desert' might be trivialized by a high-level, expensive, teleportation ritual.

I don't know. Is the difference between 2nd and 10th level that extreme? Should many movement based challenged be made obsolete by the wizard? Note that in this scenarios, Arcane Gate is typically automatic and much more universal at helping the party. That almost seems worse, to me, than Instant Friends, which is a chance at suceeding, and is closely enough tied to the Wizard that it won't always help the rest of the party.

Social challenges, though, happen at all levels. From negotiating with a petty official of a small town at 1st, to interceding with a Deity over the fate of worlds at 30th. They're not the kind of thing that should be obviated by a low-level ritual.

Instead, they should be obviated by a Bard with an absurdly high Diplomacy score and Words of Friendship. ;)

Seriously, though. Any challenge that is just about talking nicely to someone is too simple in the first place. There has to be some reason the challenge doesn't just end after a few Diplomacy checks. And all those non-Diplomacy relevant skills should usually still be relevant even with Instant Friends in play.

Also, good luck enchanting a god and not having that backfire in your face.

depending on how the DM read the power that day, and how argumentative the player wanted to get. (Groups are like any other set of personal relationships, sometimes, you choose your battles). Clear rules avoid such problems.

-Only lasts 1d4 hours.
-Subject won't risk life or property.
-Only makes the caster the friend, not the rest of the party.

Clearly written restrictions within the power itself. If a DM ignores them or rules inconsistenly on them, fair enough, but I don't think you can blame the power for that.

I hope to see Instant Friends errata'd to modify a Diplomacy check or provide an automatic success on diplomacy or something else in keeping with the general power and precedents of lowest-level utilities.

Honest, I'd simply like to see it a level 6 power instead of level 2. That would fit more with my own sense of balance. I don't think the actual capability of it is unreasonable in the game, but is a bit much at level 2 compared to some other options. I'd hate to see it just become another small skill-based thing - honestly, I've found those are harder to reliably tell how it will work from one DM to the next.
 

This seems a little problematic to me. I noticed it before Essentials with a few skill powers, or even class abilities (like Words of Friendship).

  1. Combat vs. Noncombat: These shouldn't be in opposition, but noncombat utility powers make these in opposition, since, in order to be good at things outside of combat, you need to sacrifice a power that could make you better in combat.
  2. DM Controls the Power: An ability like Instant Friends is almost entirely dependent on DM whim. In some situations, it could be game-breaking, in some situations, it could be useless, and there's not a whole lot of in-between ground.

The solution that I see is to FIX RITUALS, and to PAY ATTENTION TO NONCOMBAT CHALLENGES.

The first involves getting rid of GP cost and (to a certain degree) time. The second involves giving classes different powers for accomplishing goals outside of combat and taking a cold, hard look at the "sameness" of skill challenges.

Instant Friends is useful for a player looking for nostalgia, or looking for a "charming enchanter" archetype in a game in which that archetype is not hosed by a DM who doesn't want or isn't ready for Orcus to be your friend.

It's incredibly niche.

I want to see stuff like Instant Friends, but utility powers already have a niche as "combat abilities that don't involve attacks." Instant Friends doesn't fit in that niche, and so it should be something else.

The something else it could be involves taking a deeper look at how 4e deals with challenges that don't involve beating up stuff, not just making it a utility and calling it a day.
 

Of course, is the King really going to turn down his best friend when he asks for some help? Is he really going to tell his best friend that his cause isn't worth the effort? Using this power wins the entire Skill Challenge.

...

So, the problem is, the power is one of the most powerful spells in the game at one table, and the worst power in the game at another. I was glad 4e had gotten rid of all the powers that required so much DM intervention. I'm sorry to see them come back.

My disagreement with your first point probably supports your second point.

You mention a king and his best friend. Henry V and Bardolph were pretty much best friends. And despite pledges to never hang a thief, Henry has Bardolph hanged for stealing. Yeah, I totally think kings will even go as far as executing their best friends, if they think it's the kingish thing to do.

And then of course we have the issue of evil kings, bandits, etc. They don't typically treat even their friends very well. Being "evil" and all. Do you think Joe Stalin hesitates to liquidate his buddy, if his buddy gets in the way? Well, maybe he hesitates... but what does he end up doing?

I see your last point, though. You brought up the king example. Clearly you weren't thinking of Henry V. I was. So as DMs we would adjudicate that differently.

To me that's a sort of charming thing about role playing games. The game differs based on the personality of the DM. Note that this is true even in bog-standard 4E. I've played 3 different games of 4E (counting a campaign I'm currently in as a 'game', and a campaign I quit as a game also). 2 out of 3 have sucked because of the DM.

Even if the game requires no more DM input or adjudication than "2+2 = 4", a bad DM can still utterly ruinate any possibility of fun. I don't think a power that rises and falls based on whether your DM remembers his Shakespeare will actually hurt that much.
 

To me that's a sort of charming thing about role playing games. The game differs based on the personality of the DM. Note that this is true even in bog-standard 4E.

It should have some local personality, but I personally don't think it should exceptionally vary in that, say, MO's 4e campaign, Instant Friends wins all my social skill challenges, and then, in Korgoth's 4e campaign, Instant Friends is functionally worthless.

Of course, given that I might never encounter any social skill challenges in the first place, in, I dunno, Eddie's 4e campaign, it could be even MORE useless there.

And then, in Bob's 4e campaign, I can't use it to do anything in skill challenges, but it works just fine outside of them -- the guards do what I say, but the King still requires me to make Diplomacy checks.

This isn't a desirable outcome for me, and speaks to how badly 4e really needs a way to resolve noncombat challenges that is not simply about how a DM feels they should be judged (like how combat challenges are not about how a DM feels they should be judged).
 

The hysteria over this has, frankly, gotten more than a little absurd. Have DMs been so spoiled by 4e that they've forgotten that, once upon a time, they were once asked to make rulings and determine the effectiveness of player actions? On a regular basis, no less?

Otherwise rational people, making otherwise rational arguments, are stating their concern that this power will led to increased DM adjudication? Adjudication is the DM's job! If you're worried about adjudicating you're in the wrong line of work.

The two largest concerns voiced about the power is that
A: It's too open-ended; requires too much DM arbitration
B: Might serve as an instant-win for situations/skill challenges

And here's the beauty of it; both of these are true... and both of them cancel each other out! What is Instant Friends capable of? Whatever you say it is. I have no intention of letting anyone use this power to bypass a skill challenge. I've got a lot of trusted friends; I've still got to ask them real nice for favors, and sometimes haggle or bargain with them. In fact, I've worked security, and I would have never let my best friends go where they weren't allowed to be. This is not Mental Domination, people. In pre-4e parlance, what you're doing is setting the NPC reaction to Friendly. And since it doesn't work in combat, that automatically rules out those who are actively Hostile (like, say, a certain Prince of the Undead oft-invoked in the name of outrageous hyperbole.)

And just because an NPC is Friendly doesn't mean they will now give in to your every demand instantly except for a few clearly stated exceptions. Friendly NPCs will still need to be Intimidated, Bluffed, and Diplomacied... Diplomatized... Diplo... the point is, the only DM in their right mind who is letting people use this power to bypass Social Skill Challenges is the DM who thinks this is a perfectly acceptable interpretation of the power. If you don't think that's what the power does, then you get to say, as the DM, that that's not what it does. Simple, ne?

So what is the usefulness of this power, then? While, that's up to you. You might forgo the skill challenge in lieu of an interesting roleplaying encounter. Or you might fall back on an even more useful Friend: the DM's Best Friend. A flat +2 bonus to all social skills for the duration of the power seems like a fair tradeoff with regards to the flat, one-time bonuses of Glib Tongue or Arcane Mutterings. Maybe increase the effectiveness of the Wizard Aiding Another party member's Diplomacy checks for the encounter ("You can trust this guy. He's solid, and he's cool.") I dunno, whatever the player wants to do with it that seems balanced and fair, to you, the DM, go nuts with it.

This kind of give-and-take adjudication between player and DM used to be at the very core of our pastime. It's what separates the roleplaying game from the board game or the computer game. That there are DMs who are loathe to this sort of thing boggles my mind. And then there are DMs who don't think they should have to determine the outcome of noncombat encounters! I'm stunned, in a first-successful-save-still-causes-dazed sort of way.

I dunno, I get that everyone gets something different out of the game, and enjoy it in their own way. To each his own, I guess. I just do not get it, at all. At what point did "open-ended" become a slur in tabletop roleplaying?
 
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So what is the usefulness of this power, then? While, that's up to you.

The problem being that making the utility of a power up to DM whim makes the power, at best, a gamble as a player.

Which means that, unless the DM explicitly makes it clear that it will be useful, it is a power that should never be selected.

Because Shield is always going to be useful, with any DM that has combat (which is going to be nearly any DM).

And Instant Friends may or may not be useful. It's part of the same reason rangers don't have Favored Enemies anymore. How useful the ability is depends on DM whim, so it can't be rightly balanced.

Of course, if 4e had a better noncombat resolution system, where individual power came into play, that was used to adjudicate out-of-combat encounters and challenges, Instant Friends could affect that, and thus be useful in the campaigns where that system was used (which would be most campaigns).
 


The problem being that making the utility of a power up to DM whim makes the power, at best, a gamble as a player.

Which means that, unless the DM explicitly makes it clear that it will be useful, it is a power that should never be selected.

Because Shield is always going to be useful, with any DM that has combat (which is going to be nearly any DM).

And Instant Friends may or may not be useful. It's part of the same reason rangers don't have Favored Enemies anymore. How useful the ability is depends on DM whim, so it can't be rightly balanced.

Of course, if 4e had a better noncombat resolution system, where individual power came into play, that was used to adjudicate out-of-combat encounters and challenges, Instant Friends could affect that, and thus be useful in the campaigns where that system was used (which would be most campaigns).
When I say that it's up to the DM to determine the usefulness of Instant Friends, that is not carte blanche for the DM to declare the power useless. Especially if they have a player that's actually taken the power. No; the DM has a responsibility to determine what impact, if any, the power has in the given situation.

Note: That "if any" clause above is there in case the player tries to use the power in a situation where they should have realized the power wouldn't have had any real use. I suppose the other instance would be if the DM hadn't intended to use mechanics to resolve the situation, at which point the DM should still take the use of the power in account when acting out his or her roles.

But the only time a player is "gambling" when taking the power is if their DM both really dislikes and the power and, more importantly, is vindictive. A proper DM would be duty-bound to determine some benefit from using the power in a situation where the power would clearly benefit the power, even if that benefit is the old fallback +2. Players with vindictive DMs are gambling every time they sit down at the table.

I will agree with you on one aspect though; I wish that 4e had a better mechanic for resolving non-combat encounters. In a perfect world there would be some other mechanic between utility and ritual that Instant Friends would fit into. But in the absence of the next best thing, it becomes up to the DM to figure out how it works. While this is not ideal, it's hardly tragic.
 
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This is why this spell is awesome! The DM adjudicates, with some player feedback, no doubt. Nothing wrong with that.


To me it feels as wrong as if it said "This spell creates a stone the size of an egg, only much bigger. It then falls on top of your enemy, dealing a lot of pain."

At some tables that spell would auto kill solos, in others would cause 1d4 damage. Doesn't strike me as good design.
 

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