The issue with wizards and sorcerers

[Dandu]

It is up to the DM and the other players, what they are doing with their off time while the wizard / sorcerer is running around planar binding half the universe.

Clerics get Planar Ally, which fills a similar role.

I want to see her spell list...

Check the small box under the skill list that says "Display spells and powers" or words to that effect.

 

[akbearfoot]

My bad on the spell component...saw the description of silver circle and must have pulled the GP cost from another spell.


Magic circle says 2 different things. It says the creatures spells can cross the boundary. But then later it says if you use the special summoning diagram that their attacks and abilities can't cross the glyph.

I made an assumption that it would be a good idea to use the diagram because then they can't use their SR and you can pre-cast the dimensional anchor to keep them from D-Dooring, or teleporting out on round #1.

I like the prospect of summoning powerful outsiders, but like I said I've only ever seen it done in very rare cases. With high costs. I think the cheapest deal we ever got was having to pay the standard cost to buy NPC magic right out of the book. That was when we summoned a good outsider of some kind(forget which) to help fight against demons.

Is there anything that keeps a called outsider from just calling or summoning spell of their own and having the summoned creature step on the 'line'? In the case of good outsiders, I think a lot of them have summon monster since they cast spells usually. In the case of evil outsiders, most of them have a way to summon more of themselves, possibly stronger guys.

If I were a demon, It would seem to be in my best interests to first escape the pesky magic trap. The naked mage would probably be willing to pay more that way.

This whole topic does underscore the point of the OP was asking about though. That mages are very powerful at mid-high levels. Core melee classes just don't compete. But instead of tryign to power everyone else up to match the spell-casters, it has always seemed more fair minded to me to make the spell-casters play 'fair'. Most stuff can be handled with simple balance changes as they come up...for instance, getting your spells approved before you write them down on your character sheet. Our DM usually asks in advance of leveling what sort of 'goals our characters have, or what sort of 'tricks' they are trying to develop. So he can plan for it in advance, or let me know before I take a spell if it will work slightly differently in his world. For instance, Disjunction isn't permanent in our game world. Also ever since it popped up in a module once and almost TPKed us, there has been a mutual agreement on both sides and nobody uses Black tentacles. It always magically gets replaced with something else if its on an NPC or monsters spell list. Much happier D&D games all around with simple fixes like that.

 

[green slime]

Though it is important to note, the PCs who can most easily use their assets to garner the goodwill of other temporal forces tend to be the ones who can cast spells.

Sorcerer Planar Binds, Cleric calls in a Planar Ally, and Fighter... intimidates people?

Fighter takes Leadership feat? He's got the most feats to spare anyway? Fighter also grabs a fantastic flying mount of some kind? (Riding)

The time is limited: time spent calling outer planar beings cannot be spent communicating to villagers, training the town guard, earning credit from the local ruler(s), overseeing the build up of local defences: i.e. actually endearing himself to the local populace.

But they are all subject to the whims of the DM: The mount, the leadership cohort, the planar ally, the goodwill of the populace.

Of course, if you want to limit your imagination to having the fighter roll around in pigeon dung during the off-peak hours, don't let me stop you.

Basically, the true advantage of spellcasters is that more of their possibilities are described in the "spells" section of the PHB, whereas the player of the fighter, actually has to use his brain to leverage the same possibilities. But those possibilities are there. Some DMs may also have difficulties seeing these possibilities, and encouraging their players to get more involved than just sitting on a barstool making lewd passes at the elderly barmaid.

 

[Dandu]

Magic circle says 2 different things. It says the creatures spells can cross the boundary. But then later it says if you use the special summoning diagram that their attacks and abilities can't cross the glyph.

I made an assumption that it would be a good idea to use the diagram because then they can't use their SR and you can pre-cast the dimensional anchor to keep them from D-Dooring, or teleporting out on round #1.

There's no point in using the diagram on a Quasit, since it can't actually teleport out.

I like the prospect of summoning powerful outsiders, but like I said I've only ever seen it done in very rare cases. With high costs. I think the cheapest deal we ever got was having to pay the standard cost to buy NPC magic right out of the book. That was when we summoned a good outsider of some kind(forget which) to help fight against demons.

If that's how your group plays it, that's fine, but RAW you just make a Charisma check. Even if you're presenting nothing, it only gives you a +0 bonus, which you might not care much about depending on your Charisma. The example sorcerer I gave would have +11 to the check right off the bat.

Is there anything that keeps a called outsider from just calling or summoning spell of their own and having the summoned creature step on the 'line'? In the case of good outsiders, I think a lot of them have summon monster since they cast spells usually. In the case of evil outsiders, most of them have a way to summon more of themselves, possibly stronger guys.

Creatures do not seem to be able to touch the magic circle due to the warding. I suspect the same would hold true for anything they summon.

If I were a demon, It would seem to be in my best interests to first escape the pesky magic trap. The naked mage would probably be willing to pay more that way.

The naked mage is very compelling due to her huge... charisma.

This whole topic does underscore the point of the OP was asking about though.

I think we belabored the point instead of underscoring it.

Fighter takes Leadership feat? He's got the most feats to spare anyway?

Sorcerers can take Leadership as well, and use it better to boot. It's not like there are a lot of great feats in core for casters.

The time is limited: time spent calling outer planar beings cannot be spent communicating to villagers, training the town guard, earning credit from the local ruler(s), overseeing the build up of local defences: i.e. actually endearing himself to the local populace.

It only takes about two hour to get a few outsiders around (10 minutes for the circle, 10 minutes for the spell, say 10 minutes bargaining, repeated a few times in case of failures). It's not that much time. Afterward, the sorcerer casts Wall of Stone a few times and shores up the town's defenses in a minute by a much larger margin than the fighter could with his muscles.

Time spent casting spells: Under 2 hours, five minutes. Length of typical day: 24 hours.

I figure there'd be enough time left over to communicate with villagers, train the town guard's spellcasters, earning credit from the local ruler(s), and actually endear herself to the local populace, and do it better due to having Charisma as a primary stat.

Of course this is all DM dependent, but there's always more options for a spellcaster if given the same degree of player creativity because at the end of the day, you're working with a much better tool kit.

 

[green slime]

Sorcerers can take Leadership as well, and use it better to boot. It's not like there are a lot of great feats in core for casters.

It only takes about two hour to get a few outsiders around (10 minutes for the circle, 10 minutes for the spell, say 10 minutes bargaining, repeated a few times in case of failures). It's not that much time. Afterward, the sorcerer casts Wall of Stone a few times and shores up the town's defenses in a minute by a much larger margin than the fighter could with his muscles.

Time spent casting spells: Under 2 hours, five minutes. Length of typical day: 24 hours.

I figure there'd be enough time left over to communicate with villagers, train the town guard's spellcasters, earning credit from the local ruler(s), and actually endear herself to the local populace, and do it better due to having Charisma as a primary stat.

Of course this is all DM dependent, but there's always more options for a spellcaster if given the same degree of player creativity because at the end of the day, you're working with a much better tool kit.

You are assuming
1) that the sorcerer's abode was nearby... (from naked in the calling room...to the meeting hall may take more time if traditional travel methods are employed... or you could use another spell to teleport there...)
2) but the sorcerer may want to have more than a few spells in reserve, "just in case". Especially if you have a proper RBDM. Because a sorcerer that has run out of spells is just a glorified peasant with a crossbow.
3) Taking leadership means missing out on other feats, the sorcerer may prefer / need: metamagic feats, for instance. Especially when considering qualifying for PrC's, which many players do chase. The sorcerer does have fewer feats.
4) Precisely because of the speed at which the sorcerer shore's up the defences, actually works against her: everything is perceived as being very easy for her, therefore her contribution is more likely to be taken for granted, and underappreciated. In other words, it is probably better for town morale if the sorcerer doesn't show up and slap up two/three Walls of Stone, and then disappears.
5) The town's spellcasters are probably lurking around in the sorcerer's abode, hoping to catch an eye of all that naked "Charisma". Training them will be more private (not usually done near the market place on a daily basis) and therefore less noticeable, and much more time consuming, for less public reward.
6) If the spellcasters are participating in all these other activities, they are hardly doing other activities often undertaken during off-peak time: creating magical items, scribing scrolls, restocking libraries and laboratories, maintaining the same, researching new spells, and acquiring exotic spell components, negiotiating deals between Wizardly Guilds, and maintaining familial and social contacts.

The spellcaster's can do all these things, but they can't do them all simultaneously, and have to prioritise. Claiming the sorcerer is powerful because of a few spell(s) that are frequently abused is, well, stating the obvious. In fact, precisely because they could do everything, implies that perhaps they should actually do what they alone can do, and let the other characters do the rest.

What I'm saying is, that with proper DM involvement, there is no reason why a fighter, rogue or any other character should feel overshadowed by the spellcasters.

 

[Dandu]

You are assuming
1) that the sorcerer's abode was nearby... (from naked in the calling room...to the meeting hall may take more time if traditional travel methods are employed... or you could use another spell to teleport there...)

Do you not assume that the fighter's abode is nearby as well?

2) but the sorcerer may want to have more than a few spells in reserve, "just in case". Especially if you have a proper RBDM. Because a sorcerer that has run out of spells is just a glorified peasant with a crossbow.

How many spells in reserve do you need when you have at least one 14th level cleric as your minion?

3) Taking leadership means missing out on other feats, the sorcerer may prefer / need: metamagic feats, for instance. Especially when considering qualifying for PrC's, which many players do chase. The sorcerer does have fewer feats.

Given that Sorcerers can't really use Quicken Spell, Scribe Scroll, Brew Potion, Craft Wondrous Item, Forge Ring, Craft Magical Arms and Armor, and that Enlarge, Widen, Still, Silent, and Maximize spell are not worth it, that leaves about 2 useful metamagic feats for a sorcerer in core, Extend and Empower. And Extend isn't that necessary since Metamagic Rods of it are fairly cheap.

As for qualifying for PrCs... you're already one of the strongest classes in the game. It's not really necessary to make yourself more powerful.

4) Precisely because of the speed at which the sorcerer shore's up the defences, actually works against her: everything is perceived as being very easy for her, therefore her contribution is more likely to be taken for granted, and underappreciated. In other words, it is probably better for town morale if the sorcerer doesn't show up and slap up two/three Walls of Stone, and then disappears.

So if the United States Marine Corp came into your flood torn country to render aid and assistance in a timely and effective manner, they would be appreciated less than the response of your government which is woefully inadequate and inefficient?

5) The town's spellcasters are probably lurking around in the sorcerer's abode, hoping to catch an eye of all that naked "Charisma". Training them will be more private (not usually done near the market place on a daily basis) and therefore less noticeable, and much more time consuming, for less public reward.

Nothing saying you can't train them in the town square.

6) If the spellcasters are participating in all these other activities, they are hardly doing other activities often undertaken during off-peak time: creating magical items, scribing scrolls, restocking libraries and laboratories, maintaining the same, researching new spells, and acquiring exotic spell components, negiotiating deals between Wizardly Guilds,

1. Sorcerer.
2. Given the rate at which spells can accomplish things, you can get more done and have more free time to craft/scribe things as a caster than people who have to use their muscles to build things.
3. Restocking things is easier when you can teleport.
4. A wizard who needs to maintain his lab can use either Planar Bound servants or the Invisible Servant spell.
4. Don't use spells with exotic spell components.
5. I fail to see how negotiating deals between wizardly guilds will come up often enough to be a persistent drain on time.

and maintaining familial and social contacts.

Whereas fighters all have no family and can spend all day helping out, right?

The spellcaster's can[/] do all these things, but they can't do them all simultaneously, and have to prioritise.

Why must they do so simultaneously?

Claiming the sorcerer is powerful because of a few spell(s) that are frequently abused is, well, stating the obvious. In fact, precisely because they could do everything, implies that perhaps they should actually do what they alone can do, and let the other characters do the rest.

What is it that they alone can do, in your opinion?

What I'm saying is, that with proper DM involvement, there is no reason why a fighter, rogue or any other character should feel overshadowed by the spellcasters.

You know, I've heard varying accounts about that. Seems that there are too many variables from the real life campaign journals I've read about to make a blanket statement to that effect. However, the general gist of what I have heard is that it is very difficult to do.

Saying that it "just" requires a proper DM is like saying that the current political and economic crisis can be solved if we "just" elected the right person/people to office. It ignores the fact that there is a huge systemic flaw in the existing system.

 

[green slime]

Do you not assume that the fighter's abode is nearby as well?

The fighter, does not require the privacy or separation from inquisitive eyes, that calling demonic/diabolical forces usually entails... and could thus more easily locate himself in the local inn. Something the aformentioned sorcerer is hardly likely to do.

How many spells in reserve do you need when you have at least one 14th level cleric as your minion?

From a 6th level spell cast by an 11th level spellcaster... All I can say is: not IMC... Which really was the whole issue: you cannot build your entire supposition around a series of admitedly problematic spells, and then be surprised that you either 1) run rampant over the campaign world or 2) get hit by the nerf bat.

Given that Sorcerers can't really use Quicken Spell, Scribe Scroll, Brew Potion, Craft Wondrous Item, Forge Ring, Craft Magical Arms and Armor, and that Enlarge, Widen, Still, Silent, and Maximize spell are not worth it, that leaves about 2 useful metamagic feats for a sorcerer in core, Extend and Empower. And Extend isn't that necessary since Metamagic Rods of it are fairly cheap.

But limited in the amount of times usuable... and then there are other feats as well, reserve feats, for instance.

As for qualifying for PrCs... you're already one of the strongest classes in the game. It's not really necessary to make yourself more powerful.

But perhaps more flavourful?!? God forbid! Someone actually enjoying themselves!

So if the United States Marine Corp came into your flood torn country to render aid and assistance in a timely and effective manner, they would be appreciated less than the response of your government which is woefully inadequate and inefficient?

Actually, have you seen what foreign aid has done to the farming communities of many third world countries?!? Sure, the USMC does a fantastic job, but they don't replace local workers, they don't cause whole groups of people to become unemployed, they don't ruin the local economy by shipping in tonnes of free food. The sorcerer has just done that: shown that the stone masons, and bricklayers are not needed.

Nothing saying you can't train them in the town square.

Except the spell effects themselves, if casting spells, or the actual disturbance caused by curious onlookers while the students attempt to memorise complex rituals....

2. Given the rate at which spells can accomplish things, you can get more done and have more free time to craft/scribe things as a caster than people who have to use their muscles to build things.

But, you are then far more vulnerable at the end of the day...

3. Restocking things is easier when you can teleport.

Assuming you never roll 100.

4. A wizard who needs to maintain his lab can use either Planar Bound servants or the Invisible Servant spell.

Assuming the orders left were never unclear, or ambigious. Never have that feeling, that if you really needed to get something done properly, it was better to do yourself?

4. Don't use spells with exotic spell components.

Yet another Campaign variable: Diamond dust can be hard to get hold of in some campaigns...

5. I fail to see how negotiating deals between wizardly guilds will come up often enough to be a persistent drain on time.

Depends on the level of commitment to the world in question. Obviously, campaign specific. Some campaigns just have their fighters rolling in pig sties vomitting up the previous nights overindulgence.

Whereas fighters all have no family and can spend all day helping out, right?

Nope, but residing nearby does help, and everyone can meet and greet at the training ground. Interupting the sorcerer during calling practice may not be so conducive to anyone's health... Researching spells, developing new spells, summoning demons, making an inventory of lab items; you can't do these things in public.

And after helping out a whole day: the fighter is no less potent in a fight, than he was at the breakfast table.

Why must they do so simultaneously?

Time. Time is limited. Time is important, because you never, ever get it back.

What is it that they alone can do, in your opinion?

That is obviously character, party, and campaign dependant.

You know, I've heard varying accounts about that. Seems that there are too many variables from the real life campaign journals I've read about to make a blanket statement to that effect. However, the general gist of what I have heard is that it is very difficult to do.

I'd only go so far as to say "difficult". Reeling back the planar allies sure helps. Getting individual players involved various different organisations also helps.

Saying that it "just" requires a proper DM is like saying that the current political and economic crisis can be solved if we "just" elected the right person/people to office. It ignores the fact that there is a huge systemic flaw in the existing system.

Don't know enough about your present system: where I am, I'm not seeing a huge political and economic crisis. I'm seeing an emerging humanitarian crisis, the likes of which this planet has never seen. Glad to be checking out in approx 40-50 more years, with a little luck.

 

[Dandu]

The fighter, does not require the privacy or separation from inquisitive eyes, that calling demonic/diabolical forces usually entails... and could thus more easily locate himself in the local inn. Something the aformentioned sorcerer is hardly likely to do.

Considering that I prefer to bind Celestials, all I need is a quiet place. This is not likely to be rare in a town or city.

Actually, have you seen what foreign aid has done to the farming communities of many third world countries?!? Sure, the USMC does a fantastic job, but they don't replace local workers, they don't cause whole groups of people to become unemployed, they don't ruin the local economy by shipping in tonnes of free food. The sorcerer has just done that: shown that the stone masons, and bricklayers are not needed.

By the same logic, a high level Fighter with an incredible STR and CON score will have the same deleterious effects, as he accomplishes much, much more than the average man could ever hope to do. And he may have items such as a Ring of Sustainance which allow him to forgoe eating and all but two hours of rest.

But perhaps more flavourful?!? God forbid! Someone actually enjoying themselves!

Here's something I really object to. You are painting me as someone who is opposed to flavor and people enjoying themselves. This is not so.

There goes the interest to continue with you.

Have fun.

 

[green slime]

Considering that I prefer to bind Celestials, all I need is a quiet place. This is not likely to be rare in a town or city.

But this discussion wasn't about "you" nor your character... but exemplifying how other characters can be just as campaign effective. And that depends on the town / city. The chances are more likely in a city that someone is going to come and bang on your door in a city, rather than a tower in the wilderness. Either salesperson, peddler, beggar, curious locals, the mayor, the magistrate, petitioners, wannabes, fanboys, etc. There are more disturbances in a city or town, undeniably. Willing to take the risk?

By the same logic, a high level Fighter with an incredible STR and CON score will have the same deleterious effects, as he accomplishes much, much more than the average man could ever hope to do. And he may have items such as a Ring of Sustainance which allow him to forgoe eating and all but two hours of rest.

Perhaps... but he still has to toil a large part of the day to so, and not just flash in for three minutes. Seeing someone participating in your toils is more inspiring, than have someone flash by and chuck up a few walls in less than 30 seconds.

Here's something I really object to. You are painting me as someone who is opposed to flavor and people enjoying themselves. This is not so.

If that is the way you choose to read that sentence, *shrug*. Seriously, I think you are perhaps starting to look at this thread as a personal attack on your character, you, and your play style. Which was hardly my meaning.

I was merely stating,
1) Fighters have more feats than Sorcerers (fact)
2) Fighters therefore have more flexibility to select "Leadership"
3) Players of spellcasters, with fewer feats, have to face tougher choices: to qualify for a cool PrC, is not easy.
4) For fighters, that choice is obviously easier.

I have repeatedly tried to discuss the generic problem; spellcasters vs nonspellcasters, and their ability to participate in the campaign during time off. Somehow, "your" sorcerer has been repeatedly dragged into the conversation.

There goes the interest to continue with you.

That is your perogative. I suggest, however, that if you stop using your specific character as an example, and instead, talk about the generic, you would see that I do have a few points.

1) Everyone (All PCs) needs to be involved and contributing, even during off time.
2) DM dishes out awards as he sees fit; hopefully, with care so unfair dominance by a single character doesn't happen, regardless of wonky spells.
3) House Rules exist for a reason. Nerfing the planar ally/binding class of spells is IMX, relatively common.

By placing reasonable restrictions on the spellcasters' use of "downtime", and encouraging all characters to get more involved in various different organisations, instead of handwaving the spellcasters' every wish, NON-spellcasters can feel as if they contribute as much to the middle and high level campaign, and even feel they are being rewarded for those efforts.

Have fun.

I most assuredly will. But after your statement of lack of interest in any continued dialogue with me, this statement rings false.

 

[pawsplay]

But sometimes they do feel overshadowed. Basically, in a well-rounded party that is fairly optimized, everyone from the wizard to the fighter to the bard has something they do and do well. It's just that with the right preparation, a wizard can bring down the moon. A wizard can conjure a half-decent fighter replacement with far greater ability than a fighter can fake a wizard's usefulness.

Imagine two fighters. One is half-decent with a bow, uses a good Power Attack as his mainstay in melee, and has Combat Reflexes, Iron, Will, and a handful of other useful abilities. He's versatile, capable, and strong. Maybe he uses a spiked chain or some kind of reach weapon for tripping, or maybe he has Blind-Fight as a cool backup trick. The second fighter has W Focus (longsword), W Spec (longsword), Improved Critical (longsword)... you get the picture. He has Improved Initiative and Power Attack as well, so he's more effective with his (longsword). There is no question that Fighter 2 is pretty awesome with his longsword and can do some really awe-inspiring things when he gets close and cuts loose. But if these guys were partners, he would actually have to depend on Fighter 1 to set up a lot of his best scenarios. Fighter 1 has a composite bow for ranged opponents, some good tactics for groups, and can keep bad guys from swarming the group. Fighter 2 is like a cannon; Fighter 1 is like the cavalry. Fighter 2 kills things, but he has to get to the party first, and he can't deal with hydras, Glitterdust, or gargoyles with the same efficiency as Fighter 1. He's sort of hanging aroung waiting to meet meet werewolves, an enemy blackguard, or elementals or something.

In a sense, Fighter 1 is the wizard. He doesn't just do one thing and do it well. He does a lot of things, and even though he isn't strictly as good in melee as Fighter 2, he is pretty close. He can also control the battlefrield better, and rarely is at a loss for options. Fighter 2 is the fighter's fighter. Now magnify that difference in versatility by twenty, and you basically have the crux of the problem.

I think in some ways 3e made this problem worse, by giving casters more spells and easier access to them, lots of ways to improve their casting, and so forth, even as it tried to open up high level advancement for all characters, compared to AD&D. The problem is that the wizard just doesn't run out of things to do. He's a scene-stealer if you let him be. Still, at least the fighter has a future. Sure, a wizard can give himself a zillion hit points, but he can give a fighter two zillion. The wizard and cleric are the meat and the potatoes. The fighter is more like... celery, or something.