Why the Modern D&D variants will not attract new players

[nedjer]

Want to know how much metamorphic rock you can tunnel away in a weeks time use goblin slave labor? It's out there. Want to know how fast you can travel between two cities using a 90' schooner with a 20 man crew? It's out there. Want to know the amount you can safely devalue your currency by - literally making money by minting coins - if you have an 100 year old established kingdom with good credit? It's out there. Want to know how much income you earn from running an inn on an established trade route, or maybe if you run a theives guild in a capital city, or do you want to know the nesting habits of stirges? It's all out there.

but that's where the simulationist approach maybe falls down/ loses all simulation? How much you can devalue your currency or how far you can go on a schooner has to be worked out on the fly to become consistent. There are any number of modifiers to apply to such situations and a quick agreement about the main ones on the spot seems more likely to make a good fit than a generalisation, which probably doesn't match your campaign or plot/s.

While we're on it - though Stirges nest, 1e forgot to mention that Tiger Stirges don't nest; they drool aneasthetic on the necks of the sleeping, then lodge themselves at the top of the spine where they claw into, melt away and replace the upper vertebrae. They then penetrate the host's brain before laying their eggs into the spinal column and feeding themselves and their eggs from the host's brain.

 

[Windjammer]

I wrote "three years of backstock" because the PHB came out two and a half years ago and they still have have copies of early print runs. Not the first, evidently, but--from what I've heard on this site--they have enough copies in inventory to dissuade them from publishing a revised version of the PHB.

errr... they ARE doing a revised version of PHB 1, in softcover format:

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Class-Compendium-Dungeons-Dragons-Accessory/dp/0786958588/]Amazon.com: Class Compendium: Heroes of Sword and Spell: A 4th edition Dungeons & Dragons Accessory (4th Edition D&D) (9780786958580): Wizards RPG Team: Books[/ame]

 

[Mistwell]

errr... they ARE doing a revised version of PHB 1, in softcover format:

Amazon.com: Class Compendium: Heroes of Sword and Spell: A 4th edition Dungeons & Dragons Accessory (4th Edition D&D) (9780786958580): Wizards RPG Team: Books

I do not view that book as a "revised version of PHB 1". It has some stuff that was also in the PHB1, but that doesn't make it a revised version of it.

 

[Hussar]

Just because my computer has the ability to swap out graphics cards doesn't mean that everybody needs to be handed a box full of random parts and be forced to assemble their computer from scratch. You can put together an accessible computer without welding the case shut.
/snip

The problem with analogies, is how much are the two things really analogous?

A computer with a graphics card runs just fine. I could weld the case shut and it will work perfectly fine. Heck, I call that a laptop.

Will it continue to work perfectly fine ten years from now? Probably not. The new games likely won't work on it.

But, OTOH, if I go completely modular, buy parts from a bunch of different companies, there are all sorts of compatibility issues. Who knows if I can get updated drivers on that no-name sound card?

It's the difference between a Dell and a build it yourself.

In the same way, building a modular gaming system, where every module is largely discrete from every other module, to the most possible anyway, which certainly allows people to individualize a lot more easily, also runs smack into the same compatability issues that home built computers can run into.

AD&D and OD&D were not written with a complete newbie in mind. They were written with gamers in mind. These were the games that Gygax and co enjoyed and they put them out there thinking that other like minded people might too. To their surprise, the concept took off like a rocket and all sorts of gamers got into the mix.

I'm not really convinced that the "Tinker Gamer" represents the majority of gamers anymore, or if it ever really did.

 

[pawsplay]

I honestly think that the era of the "tinker's game" is over. I know that people don't want to think that, but, IMO, what we're going to see is more and more integrated systems. The tighter the system is tied to a specific genre or theme, the more integrated the system will be.

I think the era of the non-tinker's game is over. There are too many forms of entertainment that are more accessible than RPGs to compete for the mass market nerd dollar. I think a mass market D&D has about the same future as a mass market catapult.

 

[Lanefan]

Just reading the thread and spotted this one.



Umm, let's look at the math a bit here. An encounter in 4e takes about an hour. It takes 10 encounters to make a level. Let's shorten that a bit, because of things like bonus xp, traps, whatnot that might make that easier. You're talking about 200 hours of game play to go from level 1 to 30. Multiply that by "the first few times" and you're looking at about 500-750 hours of game play.

And you're surprised that the game is losing a bit of luster? The game's only been out less than three years and you've put in that many hours of play? It's not the system that's losing the luster, it's the fact that you've played the ever living hell out of it.

I've put in more hours of play in my own game over that timespan (never mind the same-system game I play in rather than DM) and it hasn't lost any luster. Stick another '0' on the end of your hours-played estimates above and then we can start realistically talking about when the shine wears off.

But in the sense that I'm talking about here, AD&D 1e is fundamentally one of the least rules light system ever, because its is definately prepackaged with rules to nines especially if you start considering the full breadth of the supplementary materials. Want to know how much metamorphic rock you can tunnel away in a weeks time use goblin slave labor? It's out there. Want to know how fast you can travel between two cities using a 90' schooner with a 20 man crew? It's out there. Want to know the amount you can safely devalue your currency by - literally making money by minting coins - if you have an 100 year old established kingdom with good credit? It's out there. Want to know how much income you earn from running an inn on an established trade route, or maybe if you run a theives guild in a capital city, or do you want to know the nesting habits of stirges? It's all out there.

One of the main skills in running a good 1e game is knowing what rules *not* to use. Like all of these.

I think the era of the non-tinker's game is over. There are too many forms of entertainment that are more accessible than RPGs to compete for the mass market nerd dollar. I think a mass market D&D has about the same future as a mass market catapult.

I suspect the publishers would very much like it if all the tinkers stopped plying their trade and left design-level stuff to the paid professionals. However, we charter members of the tinkerers union aren't about to do any such thing. That said, we're easy enough to please - all we ask for is two things: a) a playable framework, and b) get out of the way.

Lanefan

 

[LostSoul]

Really well designed RPG's aren't elegant.

I don't think so.

Really well designed RPG's have a vaiety of monolithic subsystems that you can ignore or add as you desire to make the game complicated or uncomplicated as you desire and in the areas you care about.

In that case, what you have is a toy in book form. You have to provide the game yourself. It's like buying a "make your own RPG" kit. It's the difference between being given a ball and a couple nets and playing soccer.

Elegance tends to produce tightly coupled RPG systems where every aspect of them effects every other system, so that you can't pull on one part of it without risking the whole thing falling apart. This ends up creating an inflexible system that is complex only where the designer cared to be complex, and ignores or oversimplifies where someone else might care to have complexity, and in short which is good for only one sort of game without massive effort from a GM to make it work.

Yep, that's what makes it a game. Well designed RPGs put together different subsystems to provide the experience that the game is about. They focus on some areas, ignore others, provide spaces where interpretations and judgement calls must be made, detail explicit rules that must be followed in other places, all to provide a specific experience.

 

[Blackbrrd]

I explained the basics of Dnd 4e to my girlfriend in about 15 minutes. The rules are relatively streamlined and intuitive so they are easy to remember.

 

[Nagol]

I don't think so.



In that case, what you have is a toy in book form. You have to provide the game yourself. It's like buying a "make your own RPG" kit. It's the difference between being given a ball and a couple nets and playing soccer.



Yep, that's what makes it a game. Well designed RPGs put together different subsystems to provide the experience that the game is about. They focus on some areas, ignore others, provide spaces where interpretations and judgement calls must be made, detail explicit rules that must be followed in other places, all to provide a specific experience.

Indeed. I pick the game system that best represents the feel of the genre, environment, and setting for the game I want to run.

It's only when I don't find a very good match to my taste that I turn to my toolbox of generic games and make something that matches what I'm looking for.

Elegance and reasonable integration of conceits into the ruleset is a selling feature for me. It increases the disrablility of a game for its chosen niche by making genre actions appropriate game choices.

Modularity is only really most important for the toolbox systems like Hero or Mutants and Masterminds.

 

[Celebrim]

One of the main skills in running a good 1e game is knowing what rules *not* to use.

That is true only in as much as not everything that was or is written is well considered. Some of it doesn't produce the result it was intended to produce because it wasn't play tested.

However, in my experience as a DM I would say that to the extent that we call these things 'rules' then you really don't have a full choice whether you use them or not. These things come into the game because of player propositions. Once the player proposition has been made, you have three choices - say 'no', use someone else's rule, or make up your own.

Now, it may be that you are a great rulesmith and you don't need anyone elses stinkin' rules. I can relate. But frankly no one is so good that they can't benefit from someone else's ideas and research. If some player proposes that they want to start building their own warships, or that want to prospect for minerals, or found their own religious order, or whatever, you need to provide answers and depth. That sort of depth can only come from research and usually quantitative research. Someone else's research is usually at the least a good starting point.