I absolutely agree that the basics of DnD 4E are very easy to explain. I think the basics of Pathfinder is the same. My concern is over the character creation systems in both of them, and the amount of information that is necessary on the default character sheet. That's where I get bogged down in explaining the game to new players.
Why the Modern D&D variants will not attract new players
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I absolutely agree that the basics of DnD 4E are very easy to explain. I think the basics of Pathfinder is the same. My concern is over the character creation systems in both of them, and the amount of information that is necessary on the default character sheet. That's where I get bogged down in explaining the game to new players.
Rules aside, do you think campaign settings should be simple(r) as well? If complex mechanics offer a barrier to entry, why not complex fictional environments?
Camelot
Adventurer
My players have trouble with character creation too. If I guide them along through it, it's usually no problem; once they start playing they get the hang of it really quick. But I'm going to write up a guide for new players on how to create your own character.
WayneLigon
Adventurer
The more I deal with new players, the more I think that new players can handle any amount of reasonable complexity in character design. They don't need six stats and a couple of checkboxes, they need clear instructions from the rest of the group, and support from that group.
The group that throws a 400-page rule book at the new guy who's never even played a computer game before, yeah, they'll probably lose him. That didn't happen to me back in the day and it shouldn't happen to any modern new player. The rulebook or set or edition or whatever shouldn't matter very much -- the group is actually what teaches you to play the game, not reading the rulesbook.
Right now, I'm dealing with two groups - both have people who have played less than six months in any tabletop RPG at all. Coincidentally, the games they've been exposed to include both Pathfinder and 4E. Both of them have played 4E and loved it. They apparently find the proliferation of powers and abilities no more challenging than the one woman's nine-year-olds do, which is to say not at all. Pathfinder is equally easy for them, though I will say that neither are playing spellcasters. They have a sheet that enumerates their skills and abilities, and they have no problems with 'roll a die and add this number from my sheet'.
The group that throws a 400-page rule book at the new guy who's never even played a computer game before, yeah, they'll probably lose him. That didn't happen to me back in the day and it shouldn't happen to any modern new player. The rulebook or set or edition or whatever shouldn't matter very much -- the group is actually what teaches you to play the game, not reading the rulesbook.
Right now, I'm dealing with two groups - both have people who have played less than six months in any tabletop RPG at all. Coincidentally, the games they've been exposed to include both Pathfinder and 4E. Both of them have played 4E and loved it. They apparently find the proliferation of powers and abilities no more challenging than the one woman's nine-year-olds do, which is to say not at all. Pathfinder is equally easy for them, though I will say that neither are playing spellcasters. They have a sheet that enumerates their skills and abilities, and they have no problems with 'roll a die and add this number from my sheet'.
Stormonu
NeoGrognard
I agree as well; while the overall principles are easy ("roll d20 + modifiers, you want a high number"), character creation complexity is where games usually get players in terms of complexity(/decision paralysis). 6-8 players with one DM/GM who knows the rules makes for a difficult time at character creation. Especially if you using more than core rules for some reason.
Celebrim
Legend
Character creation with new players in a complex long running game is usually at least a 2 week process of conversations and email exchanges. As such, a complex rule set may be entirely unsuited to a pickup game. Of course, a system like HERO, GURPS, M&M or even 3e D&D - whatever their positive merits - maybe completely unsuited to a pickup game even with experienced players, as character creation might well take 3-4 hours even then.
Character creation takes alot of planning, and probably should not be put off to the kick off game night.
The only real solution to this is to use pregenerated characters, but this may not be fully satisfying to everyone as one of the joys of a game is playing the character you want to play.
For this reason, 'rules light' games may be better choices if you want to do a spontaneous short session. Even a game as complex as oD&D or BECMI may not be simple enough to allow for a quick pickup game with new players. Character creation may still take 3-4 hours by the time the DM gets to everyone's character and guides everyone through the process. This is a recipe for alot of boredom.
In short, if a new players introduction to a game is through a 'character making session', then, yes, I do agree that this can be daunting, confusing, and sufficiently unfun as to turn off a new player. Stacks of books, confusing jargon, and a vast array of choices is not the way to go about winning a person over to the hobby. It's far better to get the player's ideas about what they want to play: 'a vampire hunter', 'a dinosaur rider', 'a magician that blows things up', etc. and guide them to what they need from the rules to achieve their goals rather than hand them a stack of books. That process is going to take alot of time, most of it just talking, and its far better IME to spend that time conceptually than in complex rules discussions.
Stormonu
NeoGrognard
2 weeks? If I can't get a new player into the game (or having existing, knowledgable players) have their characters made for a game in 2-3 hours, I'm going to give up on playing with those games.
Hussar
Legend
I've put in more hours of play in my own game over that timespan (never mind the same-system game I play in rather than DM) and it hasn't lost any luster. Stick another '0' on the end of your hours-played estimates above and then we can start realistically talking about when the shine wears off.
Yah, but yer weird.
[/quote]
One of the main skills in running a good 1e game is knowing what rules *not* to use. Like all of these.
I suspect the publishers would very much like it if all the tinkers stopped plying their trade and left design-level stuff to the paid professionals. However, we charter members of the tinkerers union aren't about to do any such thing. That said, we're easy enough to please - all we ask for is two things: a) a playable framework, and b) get out of the way.
Lanefan[/QUOTE]
True, but, you've had things your way for almost thirty years. If you want tinker games, there's a bajillion of them out there for you. Why complain when the ball FINALLY comes over to our side of the court?
The problem with the "playable framework" is that it results in games that, for non-tinkers, become nothing but headaches. I don't want a toy, I want a game. I have zero interest in reworking rules. I really don't. Not anymore. There are too many games out there to bother trying to rebuild one to do something that another game does better in the first place.
So, let us have this one. Let the non-tinkers have at least one version of D&D that we can play and not have to worry about playing amateur game designer.
Celebrim said:
Yes, you can take that long to make a character in those systems. But, it certainly doesn't have to. It only takes that long in 3e D&D if you start allowing a bunch of material beyond core. Stick to core and a character is built in 30 minutes or so.
And, I would say that character creation taking "at least two weeks" is possibly idiosyncratic to your particular table.
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