Converting original D&D and Mystara monsters

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Cleon said:
Damage
A mystaran gargantua retains all the natural weapons, manufactured weapons and weapon proficiencies of the base creature. The damage values of these attacks increase according to the following table (this includes improvement for increased size).

Old Damage (Each) -- New Damage
1 ----- 1d6 (average 3.5)
1d2 -- 1d8 (average 4.5)
1d3 -- 2d6 (average 7)
1d4 -- 3d6 (average 10.5)
1d6 -- 4d6 (average 14)
1d8 -- 6d6 (average 21)
1d10- 6d8 (average 27)
1d12- 7d6 (average 24.5)
2d6 -- 8d6 (average 28)
2d8 -- 8d8 (average 36)

Just realized 7d6 for a 1d12 base damage doesn't work. I wanted to do something different from 8d6 the standard advancement would make it, just to introduce some graduation, but it gives it less average damage than a 1d10 base damage attack.

I'm tempted to change it to 4d12, but that's still less Dodecahedron's don't get enough love!

What the heck, how about rearranging that section so it does arbitrarily does quadruple base damage like the original version.

It means it loses a bit of damage at 1d8 and 1d10 base damage, but it's still less than a standard 3-size improvement:

Base .... New Damage ...... +3/+4 Standard Size Increase
1 .... 1d6 '(average 3.5) ' 1d4/1d6 '(average 2.5/3.5)
1d2 .. 1d8 '(average 4.5)
' 1d6/1d8 '(average 3.5/4.5)
1d3 .. 2d6 '(average 7) ''' 1d8/2d6 '(average 4.5/7)
1d4 .. 3d6 (average 10.5) ' 2d6/3d6 '''(average 7/10.5)
1d6 .. 4d6 (average 14) ''' 3d6/4d6 (average 10.5/14)
1d8 .. 4d8 (average 18) ''' 4d6/6d6 ''(average 14/21)
1d10. 4d10 (average 22) ''' 4d8/6d8 ''(average 18/27)
1d12. 4d12 (average 26) ''' 6d6/8d6 ''(average 21/28)
2d6 .. 8d6 (average 28) ''' 6d6/8d6 ''(average 21/28)
2d8 .. 8d8 (average 36) ''' 6d8/8d8 ''(average 27/36)

I like that progression, so I'm changing my working draft.
 

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How's this for the Special Attacks, mostly based on the Titanic template's SAs. We'll need to figure out some trample and area multiple values.

Special Attacks
A mystaran gargantua creature retains the special attacks of the base creature and also gains the abilities and modifications described below. The DCs of its special attacks are recalculated according to its new hit dice and ability scores.

Area Attacks (Ex): A mystaran gargantua creature's area attacks (such as a spider’s ability to generate webs) increase in size to gigantic proportions. Multiply the height, width, and length of the base creature's area attack by the area modifier given on the Mystaran Gargantua Modifiers table.

Increased Damage (Ex): If the base creature has a special attack that deals hit point damage, increase this damage according to the Mystaran Gargantua Damage table, or multiply by 4 if the attack does a set amount of damage (e.g. if the base creature has an special attack doing 4 points of acid damage the mystaran gargantua's version would do 16 acid damage.)

If the base creature has a special attack that causes ability damage or ability drain, such as a poison bite, increase this ability damage by the amount given in the Mystaran Gargantua Modifiers table.

Swallow Whole (Ex): A mystaran gargantua gains a swallow whole attack if it ha a bite attack and is Gargantuan size or larger. The creature can swallow opponents up to three size smaller than itself (i.e. up to the size of the base creature) by making a successful grapple check. Once inside, an opponent takes takes crushing damage equal to the creature's bite attack plus acid damage (8 plus 4 per size above Gargantuan) from the creature's gizzard. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 25 points of damage to the gizzard (AC 10 plus half the creature's natural armour). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out. A Gargantua's interior can hold 2 opponents of the base creature's size, 8 opponents 1 size smaller than the base creature, 32 opponents 2 sizes smaller, and so on.

If the base creature already has a swallow whole attack, use that attack's damage values (adjusted by the Increased Damage special ability) if the result would be better than the damage given above.

Trample (Ex): A Huge or larger mystaran gargantua gains a trample attack. It can trample opponents smaller size than itself, doing the damage given in the Mystaran Gargantua Modifiers table plus 1½ times the creature's Strength bonus. A trampled opponent can attempt either an attack of opportunity at a –4 penalty or a Reflex save (DC 10 + ½HD + the titanic creature’s Str bonus) for half damage.

If the base creature already has a trample attack, use that attack's damage value adjusted by the Increased Damage special ability if the result is better than the damage of the Mystaran Gargantua Modifiers table.
 
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Added to Homebrews.

I'm thinking we should consider dropping Fine, Diminutive, and Tiny creatures from this template. I have a hard time calling a Small housefly a "Gargantua". :/

Should animals and vermin become magical beasts?
 
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Hello, is there anyone out there?

I'm getting the feeling I'm a one man band here, isn't anyone else going to at least comment on the Gargantua template. :-S

Anyhow, since no-one's objected so far I'll Update the working draft with the "Special Attacks" text in my previous post. (I tidied up some of the wording while I was at it).

The Mystaran Gargantua Modifiers table will need updating.

I still feel the Str and Con bonuses need a bit of an increase, but will leave that to one side for now.

How about this for a start:

Mystaran Gargantua Modifiers Table
Size of .......Natural . . . . . . . . . . . . . Ability..Trample
Base Creature . Armour
. Str . Dex . Con . Area . Damage . Damage
Fine............ Same ... +6 .. -2 .. -- .. ×1 . . +1d2 . .. . --
Diminutive...... Same .. +10 .. -2 .. +2 .. ×1 . . +1d3 . .. . --
Tiny ........... +2NA .. +18 .. -2 .. +6 .. ×2 . . +1d4 . .. . --
Small .......... +5NA .. +20 .. -2 . +10 .. ×2 . . +1d6 . . . 2d8
Medium ......... +9NA .. +24 .. -2 . +12 .. ×3 . . +1d8 . . . 3d8
Large ......... +12NA .. +24 .. -- . +12 .. ×3 .. +1d10 . . . 4d8
Huge .......... +16NA .. +24 .. -- . +12 .. ×4 .. +1d12 . . . 6d8
Gargantuan
.... +20NA .. +24 .. -- . +12 .. ×4 . . +2d6 . . . 8d8
Colossal ..
.... +25NA .. +24 .. -- . +12 .. ×5 . . +2d6 . .. 12d8
 


I'm thinking we should consider dropping Fine, Diminutive, and Tiny creatures from this template. I have a hard time calling a Small housefly a "Gargantua". :/
Yeah, I agree - they'd be pretty much the save as a (for example) 'monstrous fly', anyway.

Should animals and vermin become magical beasts?
I don't think so - as other than their size they are not really any different - i.e. they don't gain any spell-like or supernatural abilities.

Cleon said:
Hello, is there anyone out there?
Yup ;-)

Template looks good so far. I would suggest a line for attacks that originally deal 0 points of damage (eg rust monster's antennea) - perhaps a 1d4?

I wouldn't be adverse to increasing Str by 4 pts and Con by 2 pts for each size past Medium.

Regards
Mortis
 

Added to Homebrews.

I'm thinking we should consider dropping Fine, Diminutive, and Tiny creatures from this template. I have a hard time calling a Small housefly a "Gargantua". :/

Yeah, I agree - they'd be pretty much the save as a (for example) 'monstrous fly', anyway.

I'd rather leave it in, since the original didn't specify and size restrictions. I'd be happy to note in the flavour text that the wizard generally used creatures of between Tiny and Huge size for his gargantuism experiments.

Besides, 8 to 50 pounds is pretty dang gargantuan for a housefly. :)

Should animals and vermin become magical beasts?
I don't think so - as other than their size they are not really any different - i.e. they don't gain any spell-like or supernatural abilities.

The Titanic template doesn't change the type and the Mystaran Gargantua template doesn't add any Su abilities, so I'd leave the type unchanged.

Template looks good so far. I would suggest a line for attacks that originally deal 0 points of damage (eg rust monster's antennea) - perhaps a 1d4?

I was thinking the same. The Gargantua Carrion Crawler has tentacles which do "1d4 damage plus paralysis" instead of the standard "paralysis with no damage".

Maybe 1d4 damage but note the damage bonus is always the 1/2 Str modifier of a secondary attack?

I wouldn't be adverse to increasing Str by 4 pts and Con by 2 pts for each size past Medium.

I was thinking a more modest +2 Str and Con per size past Medium:

Mystaran Gargantua Modifiers Table
Size of .......Natural . . . . . . . . . . . . . Ability..Trample
Base Creature . Armour
. Str . Dex . Con . Area . Damage . Damage
Fine............ Same ... +6 .. -2 .. -- .. ×1 . . +1d2 . .. . --
Diminutive...... Same .. +10 .. -2 .. +2 .. ×1 . . +1d3 . .. . --
Tiny ........... +2NA .. +18 .. -2 .. +6 .. ×2 . . +1d4 . .. . --
Small .......... +5NA .. +20 .. -2 . +10 .. ×2 . . +1d6 . . . 2d8
Medium ......... +9NA .. +24 .. -2 . +12 .. ×3 . . +1d8 . . . 3d8
Large ......... +12NA .. +26 .. -- . +14 .. ×3 .. +1d10 . . . 4d8
Huge .......... +16NA .. +28 .. -- . +16 .. ×4 .. +1d12 . . . 6d8
Gargantuan
.... +20NA .. +30 .. -- . +18 .. ×4 . . +2d6 . . . 8d8
Colossal ..
.... +25NA .. +32 .. -- . +20 .. ×5 . . +2d6 . .. 12d8
 

Another change was I was giving it Snatch as a bonus feat when it hits size Gargantuan, so it gets improved grab with its claws & bite.

That way gargantuas that gain Swallow Whole can easily grapple creatures to gulp down.

I'm also thinking about giving flying gargantuas Hover as a bonus feat.

Also, there's a Gargantua in the AC9 Creature Catalog that's basically a 50 foot long carp. We could consider it a separate monster, but since it's also indexed as "Carp, Gargantua" I'm tempted to add it to the Gargantua family.

This Gargantua has a water blast attack: "Each round, it can strike with its tail, and either bite or use its breath weapon (25% chance). The breath is a 30-foot-wide and 60-foot-long blast of water which knocks down any opponent and hurls him or her 100 feet away (negated by a successful Saving Throw vs. Dragon Breath). The water blast does no damage, but the landing might."

Maybe it's a Gargantua Giant Archer Fish, but if the base creature was "regular" giant carp, it suggests giving flying and swimming gargantuas a windstorm and waterblast special attack respectively.
 

I'd rather leave it in, since the original didn't specify and size restrictions. I'd be happy to note in the flavour text that the wizard generally used creatures of between Tiny and Huge size for his gargantuism experiments.

I've got a better idea, how about changing the size increase so the minimum size is Large, e.g. Fine creatures are +5 size categories, Diminutive are +4 size categories.

We'd need to tweak the tables, but it should be simple enough.
 

Off the wall idea first. :D

I've got a better idea, how about changing the size increase so the minimum size is Large, e.g. Fine creatures are +5 size categories, Diminutive are +4 size categories.

We'd need to tweak the tables, but it should be simple enough.
To take this suggestion in a different direction - how about a template that makes a Gargantuan size version regardless of it's original size (Of course Colossal creatures would actually get smaller).

I was thinking a more modest +2 Str and Con per size past Medium
I guess I could live with that.


Maybe 1d4 damage but note the damage bonus is always the 1/2 Str modifier of a secondary attack?
I've no problem with that.

I've also got no problem with any of the bonus feat or special ability suggestions.

After looking at the gargantua conversion in the vaults of pandius (Gargantua) it reminded me that there are more examples in the Immortal rules set (must dig it out and have a look).

I'm not sure that Jamie's Gargantuan Spectre warrants a CR of 28 though.

Regards
Mortis
 

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