November 16th release for Web-based Character Builder

[Scribble]

I want to reiterate that an subscription-only online model is completely compatible with physical play and families.

To a degree sure- but again I say it's not inline with how the company has operated in the past. It would be a major shift, and major shifts don't happen overnight for large companies.

The things that support the notion that Wizards intends to continue the physical book model include the Encounters program and the retailer program that allows the FLGS to stock certain items early. This certainly encourages people to buy the physical product and participate in the FLGS community. These efforts make me happy, and I participate in them in every way that a customer can.

However, there are other signs that point to the physical book and object model failing, or at best they're ambiguous about what they actually mean.

For instance, the change to Essentials indicates that there had been a problem with the way Wizards was producing and selling books. If the previous thin hardback model were completely successful, there would have been no need for the change.

Yep- I don't disagree here. WoTC has recognized that in order for physical games to stay viable in the marketplace they need to change the way they present those products.

If they idn't want the product to stay viable, why invest the effort into making them more attractive?

Essentials is not actually cheaper -- it's equal or greater in terms of cost to match the same functionality that one had with the core three at the start of the 4e line.

Depends on how you look at it.

When the core set came out, you had to spend $30 each on three books to get a functional instance of the game. Now, you have to spend $20 on a Heroes book, $20 on the RC, $40 on the DM kit, and $30 on the Monster Vault. That's a total expenditure of $110 vs. $90. It's even more if you want to cover the player options that you got out of the first PHB.

This is why I said it depends on how you look at it. It's designed to be more "modular."

As a player I really only need one players book I can choose either of the players books as well.

As a DM the requirements are really Rules compendium, and monster vault. The DM's kit is nice, and filled with cool advice, but nothing in it is absolutely needed to play the game.

One copy of the rules compendium is really needed at a table. Maybe two for convenience.

If the DM already has it the player's don't really need it.

It's an easier way to get into gaming.

Ultimately maybe it would cost more to get everything, but they've vastly reduced the need to get everything up front.

They've made it easier/cheaper to get the physical products needed to start gaming. You can take it as far as you want from there, which is no different then it ever was.

There are other things. For example, the miniatures line. There have been no announcements of forthcoming releases, so they're pulling back on that aspect.

Sure, but take a look at what they're doing with tokens.

Tokens allow them to include a physical representation of all the monsters in a vault at a low cost. It would be prohibitively expensive to do the same with minis.

They've lowered the cost and lowered the amount of effort needed to get a game going at a table.

they've designed boxes that pretty much allow me to open them and jump right into the game with minimal effort.

And those much-decried booster packs that came out with Gamma World? They're making their way in to D&D, as well. It's an attempt to maintain store presence for D&D like their store presence for M:tG. We're going from expensive-to-produce collectibles to cheap-to-produce collectibles. How long until we have virtually-free-to-produce collectibles in the form of online tokens that we have to sustain with a subscription?

My argument continues here that you're making a jump here based on nothing but fear of what COULD happen, not based on any actual signs.

You're equating a physical product with plans to go digital. The two are only related by virtue of you saying they're related.

If anything this points towards wanting there to be more of a hook for physical products.

To me, all these things could be signs of desperation about the physical product model.

Or signs that to keep the physical product model viable changes need to be made to make them more in line with what customers want/need, and are willing to pay for.

Don't get me wrong: I like 4e, and I play 4e all the time. I just think it's possible that Wizards may be lying to us and screwing us again, like they have many times before.

I've never been screwed. Sorry you have.

I think it's foolish to stick my head in the sand and pretend it could never happen.

Who's doing that? I'm saying nothing is actually pointing in that direction.

I could get hit by a bus while crossing the street. Since there is no bus coming, and the light is red, I figure it's a safe bet that I won't get hit by a bus while crossing the street.

When there is actually a bus coming, and I'm crossing against the light... I'll worry then!

By recognizing the trend now and letting Wizards know how we feel, we may be able to change their plans about their potential disaster.

You seem to be inventing a trend to argue against. I feel this is as purposeful as getting a petition together to also stop them from deciding to turn D&D into only a line of low sodium pasta sauces.

There's no real evidence of them doing this, and a lot of evidence that they're NOT doing this... so why get up in arms about something not happening?

If you really want to- hey go for it... I just think it's kind of irrational.

 

[Echohawk]

Ink is expensive?

the character sheets look like ass?

Ever since I've been subbing to the DDI, I've never printed out a character sheet and run it off the laptop?

Is there any reason you can't just look at the PDF on your PC without printing it, if ink costs are an issue? (Assuming you don't mind staring at ass too much, that is.)

 

[DEFCON 1]

To me, all these things could be signs of desperation about the physical product model. Don't get me wrong: I like 4e, and I play 4e all the time. I just think it's possible that Wizards may be lying to us and screwing us again, like they have many times before. I think it's foolish to stick my head in the sand and pretend it could never happen. By recognizing the trend now and letting Wizards know how we feel, we may be able to change their plans about their potential disaster.

And this is exactly why they probably won't listen to you... because you freely admit that you think WotC has and probably always are "lying" to you and "screwing" you... and yet you continue to give them your money and use their product.

Your actions are not equaling your words.

Thus one of two things can be divined from this... either you're an addict who just can't quit the game despite knowing how bad it is for you (to which WotC's response should be that it's not up to them to police your actions and you need to bear personal responsibility)... or else your words are uselessly hyperbolic and you don't really believe that their sins of lying and screwing you over actually hold any weight for you (because if they did, you wouldn't still play the game).

Now while we can and do get "experts" claiming that games like WoW produce the first effect, the claim of "D&D addicts" are practically nil. Thus, it comes down to the second point... you may claim you're always being lied too, but your actions are speaking louder than your words.

And this is why I always post in threads like this... because I just like shining the light on perspective... something that quite a number of people here on ENWorld lose every single day when something happens that ticks them off.

And so long as people continue to go so far over the top to claim that the company has and will continue to "screw you"... but NOT have that actually affect your playing the game... it tells WotC that they are safer discounting your opinion because it is not coming from a place of logic or reason. It's coming from pure emotion and fear... and as we see time and time again... fear passes quickly once there's a new boogyman to bring the scares.

 

[JoeGKushner]

The biggest issue I have with no longer having an offline CB is the amount of errata. Building a character becomes very difficult if you not only look through your book (I like it this way), but also all your Dragon magazines for the feats and powers here and there and re-checking everything with the big errata pdf, that is not sorted after classes, powers and races, but only after book. Looking if a single warlord power has been errated is quite difficult. You have not even the classes bookmarked.

Yes, the compendium has the updated rules, too, but it is also online only

---


Maybe. But if one of them is locked in, you are not able to access any DDI content yourself. Or posting on their boards, or anything.

If WoTC stays true to this path, you won't have to worry about looking through Dragon. It'll be online through a viewer or something. In for a penny, in for a pound right?

 

[mudbunny]

I would like to point people to the thread here. It is a shorter thread, and Paolo is fairly active in it responding to questions about the actual features of the new CB. A couple of screenshots are in there as well.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Is there any reason you can't just look at the PDF on your PC without printing it, if ink costs are an issue? (Assuming you don't mind staring at ass too much, that is.)

If the DDI includes a native way to print to PDF.

Is that correct? Does it have it?

It doesn't solve the problem of how I use the CB to look up magic items, rituals, and alchemical material at the game since the Online Compendpum is not able to be reached offline either mind you but it's a small step in keeping the CB viable for my actual gaming purposes.

 

[mudbunny]

If the DDI includes a native way to print to PDF.

Is that correct? Does it have it?

Very few programs have print to pdf native. Accoding to Paolo, just as with the current CB, you would need to install a third-party print to pdf program. I use cute pdf. (free).

 

[evilref]

Very few programs have print to pdf native. Accoding to Paolo, just as with the current CB, you would need to install a third-party print to pdf program. I use cute pdf. (free).

Added to which the increased priority on export, the same file system being used for characters (.dnd4e) and Paolo's interest in speaking to 3rd party app developers and I would be surprised if it took more than a couple of months before iplay4e etc. are back to full speed with the new CB. EDIT: And until then pdf should work fine, editable sheets of you wanted to run off a laptop/tablet etc.

 

[Scribble]

Added to which the increased priority on export, the same file system being used for characters (.dnd4e) and Paolo's interest in speaking to 3rd party app developers and I would be surprised if it took more than a couple of months before iplay4e etc. are back to full speed with the new CB. EDIT: And until then pdf should work fine, editable sheets of you wanted to run off a laptop/tablet etc.

The fact that he said that makes me feel like they really want to open the DDI system up to 3rd party development in a way that allows them to do cool stuff without being shady, or without it just being a way to pirate info around.

 

[Herschel]

...removed...

Fixed that for you.

It's great for me. I can access from nigh anywhere and mac users will be able to also. It may suck for people on a plane (which affects how many really?) but basically every sleezebag motel even offers free wi-fi these days. It's a good move for more people than it hurts, which would be the goal.


Mod Edit: Please, folks, other people's words are not yours to fix. Don't do this. Thanks. ~ Umbran