Haltherrion
First Post
Err... what? How is magic a de-bogus-er? Sure an anti-magic field might be a de-boguser and, that's a spell, I guess so maybe that's what you mean...
Weak Deaths
- Thread starter Doctor DM
- Start date
Err... what? How is magic a de-bogus-er? Sure an anti-magic field might be a de-boguser and, that's a spell, I guess so maybe that's what you mean...
Not saying it is (since I'm not quite sure what you mean by that)- I'm just saying that Supes has more than one weakness, and provided exemplars.
The Shaman
First Post
The dungeon entrance was a stream flowing from a cave. There was a deep hole in the bottom of the stream some ways inside.
Instead of sending the human thief ahead to scout, the party decided to send the dwarf fighter in full armor ahead instead, due to his infravision. The dwarf was to scout ahead and report back; no one considered roping up.
The dwarf waded ahead then promptly sank out of sight and drowned.
The player said, "I've never had a character die on the steps leading into the dungeon before!"
Hussar
Legend
Zhaleskra - I'm sorry you feel that way. I get what you're saying. I do. And quite often, I actually do play this way. It's loads of fun to have death as a consequence in games.
It's also loads of fun to take death off the table, if you do it right.
I guess that was my point. I've been accused of onetruewayism here, but, that's not it at all. Yes, you can have great games where death is a consequence. Sure. But, blowing off any game where death is off the table by saying that it hits your boring button ignores a rather large swath of games where death isn't a direct consequence.
I just enjoy a rather broad selection of games and I like to point out that there are other choices out there that really are loads of fun. Different, true, but still loads of fun.
It's also loads of fun to take death off the table, if you do it right.
I guess that was my point. I've been accused of onetruewayism here, but, that's not it at all. Yes, you can have great games where death is a consequence. Sure. But, blowing off any game where death is off the table by saying that it hits your boring button ignores a rather large swath of games where death isn't a direct consequence.
I just enjoy a rather broad selection of games and I like to point out that there are other choices out there that really are loads of fun. Different, true, but still loads of fun.
MortalPlague
Adventurer
I take a similar view of death as Zhaleskra; if it's not on the table, I'm not having as much fun. For me, it's fun to see how a character's story comes to a close, and not all heroes can retire and settle down. If my character dies, then I have no problem letting them die. It can be very interesting to see how the story comes to a close for a given adventurer.
I've had a few situations where a DM will actively prevent my character's death. This is a dealbreaker for me. I don't mind if weak deaths are prevented (though I've suffered a number of them), but if death entirely is prevented? Not my cup of tea.
As a PC, I've had a number of characters die to weak deaths. The few most memorable:
I guess I should be more careful playing warlords.
Anyway, I've lost a number of characters to poor luck, and it makes for a good story in the long run. I wouldn't have it any other way.
When I DM, I also prefer to let the dice fall where they may. I don't usually require checks for trivial tasks, and when it's easy, it's an easy set of checks. Often, the PCs get multiple checks to avoid failure; it doesn't hinge on one bad roll. But a string of bad rolls can find the PC falling from a cliff...
To combat sheer dice hate killing PCs, we have 'Luck Points'. Each character gets three, and they can basically make any attack miss, or any attack crit. They help the PC achieve their moment of awesome, and not die to something silly. And the fact that they never replenish makes players treat them with due caution.
I've had a few situations where a DM will actively prevent my character's death. This is a dealbreaker for me. I don't mind if weak deaths are prevented (though I've suffered a number of them), but if death entirely is prevented? Not my cup of tea.
As a PC, I've had a number of characters die to weak deaths. The few most memorable:
- Bartholomew Feathers, goblin warlord. He always wanted to fly, and would constantly climb things and jump off them. He came to possess a mechanical 'jumping' machine, which was as close as he'd come to flying. The people who built the machine offered to teleport it to the surface while the party climbed the day-long flight of stairs to reach the surface. Fearing it would be stolen while they climbed, Bart opted to remain in his machine. The DM rolled a d6, saying that on a one, the teleport would fall short. Guess what came up?
- Gavin Ward, human warlord. The eldest son of a well-to-do wool merchant was just beginning his adventuring career. He was a noble hero, brave and kind, and he was celebrating at the tavern with his fellow adventuring school classmates on the eve before their final test. A barfight was started, and Gavin took a grievous wound, then bled out on the floor before anyone could patch him up. Bonus irony: he had just shouted that "Nobody's going to die" to the wizard.
- My reluctant barbarian hero was chosen to lead the party in a 3rd edition game. The group found out that a little girl had just gone into a mine where people had been turned to stone recently! Tracking her deep into the mines, the party finally caught up with her when they saw the basilisk. On the far side of the battlefield, the little girl disappeared down a ledge. Ignoring the basilisk, my barbarian ran to save the girl; he dropped down the ledge after her, and found out that she was a little medusa. He rolled a '1' on his fortitude save and was immediately petrified.
I guess I should be more careful playing warlords.
Anyway, I've lost a number of characters to poor luck, and it makes for a good story in the long run. I wouldn't have it any other way.
When I DM, I also prefer to let the dice fall where they may. I don't usually require checks for trivial tasks, and when it's easy, it's an easy set of checks. Often, the PCs get multiple checks to avoid failure; it doesn't hinge on one bad roll. But a string of bad rolls can find the PC falling from a cliff...
To combat sheer dice hate killing PCs, we have 'Luck Points'. Each character gets three, and they can basically make any attack miss, or any attack crit. They help the PC achieve their moment of awesome, and not die to something silly. And the fact that they never replenish makes players treat them with due caution.
Zhaleskra
Adventurer
In a Rolemaster game, I didn't even mention how much damage my good Orc Cleric had taken until I had fallen unconcious from bleeding wounds. Given the circumstances, I do understand that GM's "oops" look.
In a licensed Serenity game, my character and another character SHOULD HAVE DIED, but we allowed the same GM to give the other characters a chance to save us, otherwise we died. Unfortunately, schedule conflicts made the next session never happen.
In a d20 Modern game, my character was knocked unconcious and nearly killed because a. I wasn't into the firearms thing and b. I refused to deal lethal damage with my unarmed attacks.
My basic idea is if the enemies want to take us alive, that should be their motivation from the beginning. Not the GM saying "oops. yer not really dead." If I like the people, I might be able to forgive it up to 3 times . . . but most of the time, the third "that's not what really happened" will cause me to leave.
People play games differently. I'm one of the people who highlighted the phrase "others die" in my 3.x Player's Handbooks.
Once again, someone built that trap for a reason. That river really is that fast. NPC 247A really is that good. My character is a bunch of stuff on some paper.
And in my opinion, no matter what the game calls you: if you are invincible you are not a hero. Period.
In a licensed Serenity game, my character and another character SHOULD HAVE DIED, but we allowed the same GM to give the other characters a chance to save us, otherwise we died. Unfortunately, schedule conflicts made the next session never happen.
In a d20 Modern game, my character was knocked unconcious and nearly killed because a. I wasn't into the firearms thing and b. I refused to deal lethal damage with my unarmed attacks.
My basic idea is if the enemies want to take us alive, that should be their motivation from the beginning. Not the GM saying "oops. yer not really dead." If I like the people, I might be able to forgive it up to 3 times . . . but most of the time, the third "that's not what really happened" will cause me to leave.
People play games differently. I'm one of the people who highlighted the phrase "others die" in my 3.x Player's Handbooks.
Once again, someone built that trap for a reason. That river really is that fast. NPC 247A really is that good. My character is a bunch of stuff on some paper.
And in my opinion, no matter what the game calls you: if you are invincible you are not a hero. Period.
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I'm also one of those who had a PC death in ChaGen in Traveller.
Weak or greedy?
Weak or greedy?
The Shaman
First Post
"I still don't have Vacc Suit, so I'll go one more term and try to pick up . . . AAAAAGH!"
Vegepygmy
First Post
Oh, yeah. Countless times!
My most recent "weak" D&D death was an elven ranger, the leader of the party and beloved by them for his daring bravery. As we were riding from one place to another, what we expected to be some uneventful overland travel went horribly, horribly wrong. An ankheg that we should have easily been able to handle attacked us, and my ranger rode up to assist our cleric, who was right next to it. The next thing I know, the cleric has withdrawn, leaving me alone next to it, and the ankheg has me grappled. A few bad grapple checks and missed opportunities by my fellow players later, the heroic ranger is somewhere underground, being digested by the ankheg. The DM just looked stunned. He really hadn't expected anything like that to happen, and neither had we. But the group has talked about that encounter many times since, and we all love that we play a game where that sort of thing can happen. It keeps the excitement alive.
A long time ago, playing a non-D&D system, I had a character I'd played for a long, long time, and really grown to cherish. He wound up pinned to the ground by a couple of hobgoblins while another hobgoblin stood there, poking him with a spear. I was in no great danger yet, but needed my fellow party members to free me. Our trusty dwarf decided the best way to do this would be to ride through the space my character was pinned in, trampling us all. By the rules of that particular game, this would likely damage (but not kill) my character as well as the hobgoblins, end the pin, and give me a good chance of surviving. What actually happened was the dwarf critted me, then rolled so well (badly?) for damage that he killed me instantly. Again, there was nothing especially important about the encounter, I wasn't in dire straits yet, and the outcome was so unlikely that we were all stunned by it. It was a really lame way for that cherished PC to die...but I wouldn't change it for the world.
I can't recall any specific times when I've seen someone die in a way like you described (swimming across a river on the way to the real encounter), but that's because, as others have pointed out, such scenarios virtually never happen in actual games. If it's that unchallenging of a skill check, you don't actually make one. You either bypass it by magical means, take 10, or don't even call for a roll.
Argyle King
Legend
Well, does the following count?
In a GURPS game a long time ago; at a game table far far away, I had my character killed by the bad rolling of someone else. The member of the group who was the pilot made several critical failures during a manuever. Needless to say, trying to survive being at ground zero of an anti-matter reactor core explosion was an excercise in futility.
