Insider: Character Visualizer canceled?

[shadzar]

Ignoring all the rest, you are saying there is no record you can copy and paste or save from the games text chat, so you have to go to a forum to actually be able to talk unless using VOiP??

Seems this VTT is deficient on so many levels, what benefit could it really offer anyone?

 

[Keefe the Thief]

It's a pretty cool VTT for playing D&D online with friends? I mean, it also seems effective at making you pretty agitated, but i doubt this is a planned design feature.

 

[Hussar]

Ignoring all the rest, you are saying there is no record you can copy and paste or save from the games text chat, so you have to go to a forum to actually be able to talk unless using VOiP??

Seems this VTT is deficient on so many levels, what benefit could it really offer anyone?

Huh?

I'm not sure about the WOTC VTT, but, Maptools and Open both automatically save the text chat. So, we post our transcripts after each session. But, those transcripts are housed on our own forums. I'm not sure how you'd go about making that available to people who are not in the chat room. It would be like being able to eavesdrop on an MSN chat conversation. I have no idea how you'd do that. Nor would I want to really.

I'm not sure what you're looking for. You want to be able to spectate on games? I suppose that's possible. Not sure why though. What's the problem with going on the WOTC boards to look for a gaming group?

Are you thinking that a VTT is an actual game?

 

[Kafen]

You're talking about one shot pick up games which I'm sure people will do. But, for an ongoing campaign, you're likely going to need at the very least a thread on a forum somewhere to keep track of things. Better still, create a forum (proboards is good for this as are the various wiki resources) and you have your own little corner of the internet to work from.

Good point... For campaigns, it is virtually required to have a place where both players and the GM are able to compare notes, chat, and work out the long term details in posting format. It is true of games dating all the way back to the Conan snail mail games - logistics. The forums serve as a third party that stores your data which takes the stress of storing your game data for many online players.

Mind you, I advocate frequent backups with modern media. Dropbox is an awesome backup if you have the log files.

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Another benefit to forums in conjunction with VTT is community integrity. As long as the forum community chats, blogs, bickers, and has fun with each other in the forum, the VTT community is going to be an extension of the forum community which offers a solid core of users to both services.

Also, it serves as a backup meeting place for people to meet if the VTT lobby or network is not working - a common issue. With Windows 7, the 'home' and secure networks hosting issue appears quite a bit. It takes some tech work and link trading to get some people on the same VTT.

Forums offer all of these services to the VTT community. It's the virtual world as we know it, today. Heck, even most VoiP hang out groups use forums as a secondary system in case the chat line goes down.

...and as a sidenote, usenet functions in much the same way for people that hate forums. There are many aging gamers all over the world that still use usenet to talk DND. VoiP, VTT, bloggers, twitter posters, and forum gamers miss out on quite a bit.

 

[shadzar]

Huh?

I'm not sure about the WOTC VTT, but, Maptools and Open both automatically save the text chat. So, we post our transcripts after each session. But, those transcripts are housed on our own forums. I'm not sure how you'd go about making that available to people who are not in the chat room. It would be like being able to eavesdrop on an MSN chat conversation. I have no idea how you'd do that. Nor would I want to really.

I'm not sure what you're looking for. You want to be able to spectate on games? I suppose that's possible. Not sure why though. What's the problem with going on the WOTC boards to look for a gaming group?

Are you thinking that a VTT is an actual game?

You said that you had to use forums to schedule a game, I said once you find a group to play with, that could be done in the VTT, and you could copy and paste into a text file to look at later. No need for forums, so that people could just meet and play with new people.

I was asking if the WotC VTT somehow didn't let you copy/paste the text chat or didn't have a text chat because of VOiP that would allow this.

I am thinking the D&D VTT is a joke, but that is beside the point.

I know what MapTools and OpenRPG both do, and they have the same failings for running a D&D game that NWN has where you have to script stuff out in some convoluted method.

I also wasn't talking about eavesdropping, but like the poker example you missed the point of, people could come in to a game that was running a sesion, but looking for players and watch rather than rely on the description to see if the game AND the players oof it meet their tastes to join and actually play as opposed to jsut watching.

Sure like the poker games you may have to wait until the proper time to actually join, but also like them you don't like the way the table is running, you don't join that table. Everyone going All-in all the time, and people just cracking "yo momma" jokes; you don't have to join that game, but can watch a little before joining to find out.

That is why the function of the spectator view was added to many games where people join others to watch.

 

[Hussar]

Ah, now I understand. I'm just not sure how you expect to find the group over the VTT? I suppose some hopefuls might hang out in the lobby asking for players but, ew yuck. No thanks. I have a rather lengthy chat sessions and emails back and forth for a while before allowing new players into an ongoing game. I've had way too many bad experiences to just have open casting calls anymore.

Not sure if the WOTC VTT allows you to save the chat log. I imagine, at worst, you could cut and paste it. Don't see why you couldn't. In our VTT games, we actually record our speach as well - so nothing really gets lost. I don't think the WOTC VTT has this option currently and since the chat program is built into the table, I have no idea how hard that would be to add. There are numerous programs that will record from your speaker inputs though, so, I can't imagine you couldn't work around it.

As far as scripting stuff out goes. Well, there is some of that. Mostly it's similar to writing out stat blocks for your monsters in a tabletop game. I would point out that you certainly don't have to do it. You can just die roll and type as you go. It just makes the game run a whole lot smoother if you do the work beforehand.

And, of course, the maps look a lot prettier if you put the effort in.

I have pretty much zero scripting skills. I just use the tools given. I would assume that somewhere down the line, WOTC will integrate the tools so that you will be able to drag and drop monsters from the monster builder to the VTT, which will be a HUGE bonus. I'd be very surprised if we don't see that before the beta is wrapped up.

My big question with the WOTC VTT is whether or not it will remain behind the paywall. I hope that it doesn't. That you'll be able to use the basic VTT - no rules inclusions - for free and then when you join the DDI you get access to the integrated tools. We'll have to see on that one.

 

[shadzar]

Ah, now I understand. I'm just not sure how you expect to find the group over the VTT? I suppose some hopefuls might hang out in the lobby asking for players but, ew yuck. No thanks. I have a rather lengthy chat sessions and emails back and forth for a while before allowing new players into an ongoing game. I've had way too many bad experiences to just have open casting calls anymore.

As dumb as they are, they will likely place it behind the paywall, so you have to have a DDi to use it for all cases. Which would defeat the purpose of people with books, but nobody to play with, so why would someone buy the books or look in 4th editions direction, if they have no chance to play it.

NWN installs, and then you can play the crappy CRPG adventure, but also you can play with other people. To find those people you go into a lobby, and read some info on the game, see what language it is, how many people are allowed into it, etc.

NWN should have MUCH more procesor overhead for it with its 3D visualization, but could run with MANY more players than you should a TTRPG.

Like that is how you would find a group.

Say you can only be on during certain hours of the day to play due to working 2nd shift. Well odds are right away you will be on and see others on that may have similar schedules to yours and similar playing times available. BIGGEST obstacle to playing TTRPGs already taken care of. You can find people with the same schedule and more access to more people, but you don't have to drive for hours to play.

That is ALSO the biggest advantage to a VTT that a normal tabletop. So if not offering the ability to meet new people that have time to play when you do, what real point is it to use D&D VTT, as opposed to any of the others, if you have to meet them somewhere else? Especially if you have to be a DDi subscriber to use it.

World Opponent Network - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia this is basically the type of thing that these lobbies serve as.

 

[Sorrowdusk]

Why am I going to a forum to find players? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of playing on a VTT where you can find pick-up games? What is the point to being housed online, if it cannot have a way to connect like a lobby to find gamers. MtGO has a lobby with actual tables you click on.

So if everyone is typing in Katakana, then they are Native English speakers?

Now I must seriously ask you this question, before I can respond to other parts of your post. How much of a multiplayer computer gamer are you?

OpenRPG, MapTools, I think even that pay one KludgeWorks offers a sort of lobby, as do most things to connect people to play, so why wouldn't there be a place to meet new people within the software itself.

If you have to jump to the WotC forums to find a game that is just silly, even NWN used the WON Network I think where you connected to a server and were presented with a list of games, PWs, etc to join; and MtGO has a lobby to just play with however, but granted it is a different type of game requiring only 2 people and lasting les time than D&D would.

Many people NOT knowing anyone to play with is where the VTTs shine if they can provide the ability to meet new people and play that have the same type of schedule as them, because they met them at 2am Tuesday night, odds are they have that time free to game, so scheduling conflicts would be few and far between, and that is a big obtsacle for TTRPGs, that VTTRPGs would easily overcome.

Think of it this way-I'm in two games right now in IRC. IRC was the medium for me to play the game, but not to find it.

 

[shadzar]

Think of it this way-I'm in two games right now in IRC. IRC was the medium for me to play the game, but not to find it.

Wrong way to think about it. You may have had IRC before, or may have gotten it to play with.

D&D VTT wil be there on DDi. Like an MMO, you install the software and use it to connect to other people. DDi may have a LOT less to install, but same thing. Now for ease of use, most do away with making you learn your IP and trying to connect via direct IP connection, but WANT you to use their servers to connect. This will allow VTT behind a paywall, as well nothing to download but running from the java applet, to be controlled by the company, as well a give people a bigger chance to connect with people without having to know their IP, someone else's IP, where to use that, etc. Like IRC you need to know which server to go to, MMOs do that too, but unlike IRC, there isn't a need for different servers to ahve a lobby.

I am really surprised some people don't get this. Maybe you aren't from the video game area and never really delved into it. Playstation, Microsoft, Nintendo (i think haven't used a Wii) all have some sort of player lobby for their games, whether it is subscription based like XBOX Live, or something free from the company that makes the game.

In order to capture the biggest portion of video gamers that might come over to D&D with the aid of this VTT, there needs to be something that resembles what they know to allow them to get into a game.

WotC forums are pretty much crap, so that is out.

Aside from persistent worlds, one of the big things when NWN first came out was that you could use it as a somewhat automated virtual table top, and it even did the dice rolling via the 3d fighting. With the exception of not having the feel of direct TTRPG, and of course not using 4th edition rules, but 3rd (I think), it is still the best VTT for D&D that would draw in video game players to compete with WoW, but actually play a more traditional PnP RPG. You can be there as a DM with a small party and run closed games, or have open ones.

The key thing is the lobby that lets you connect to people and have the ability to join games with people you don't know.

Anyone can use forums, or telephone or whatever to start, but MANY will jump right in to find people, and that lobby is a key component that will be needed. Even OpenRPG has/had a lobby where you could see servers running. You didn't ned to go to a website, when the software wa running it let you find games to join.

If D&D VTT can't offer that, then people might as well use OpenRPG with Skype for VOIP.

 

[Hussar]

The problem Shadzar, is all of the examples you give don't exactly map to actual RPG play. For most of the MMO games, everyone who gets on is playing exactly the same game. If I'm playing WOW, for example, what's on the box is what I'm playing.

But, if I go into a VTT lobby, I might be playing D&D, or Pathfinder, or Savage Worlds, or some Indie game that has ten players worldwide.

Sure, it will likely have some sort of chat lobby. See OpenRPG for a good example of that. Maptool actually lacks this and it probably should have one. But, having played online for a long time, I can honestly say that bringing in players "off the street" so to speak without weeding out the jerks is a very, very bad idea.

When you jump on a video game lobby, you're likely only going to play with this group of people once and never again. You might not, you might form a guild and whatnot, but, likely, it's a one off.

RPG's generally don't play that way.

Now, the Living campaigns I can see absolutely thriving in this sort of set up. This is tailor made for getting living campaigns off and running. Imagine a permanent gaming con where you have DM's showing up regularly to run Living games. All you'd need is a fairly small number of DM's (about 200 or so) and you'd have a game starting every hour of every day of the week. Critical mass.

But, for a regular home game? A VTT lobby is one place to form a group, but, honestly, seeing how it works now for existing VTT's - some of which have user bases in the small thousands, so they make good case studies - I don't think the majority of users will work that way.