D&D 4E Convince me that 4e is worth my time

As an aside, what is this about Skill Challenges? I can't seem to wrap my head around them, and the DMG's example revolves around Diplomacy checks- something that would better served to be roleplayed out according to checks rather than "The king gives you useful information if you get five successes before three failures."

Generally, an ideal skill challenge is one that is more complex than just "Convince the Duke to help you." Anything that can be narrowed down to a single Diplomacy check doesn't need to be represented as a skill challenge.

The goal of a skill challenge, ultimately, is to present a complex non-combat challenge in which all PCs can participate. Ideally, it functions hand in hand with roleplaying and creativity - the DM uses the framework of the skill challenge behind the scenes to help resolve the various ideas the players come up with.

Now, why would you want such a thing? As mentioned above, to help provide opportunities for all characters to be involved in the scene - rather than just having the bard, as usual, roll Diplomacy checks until the Duke agrees to whatever he wants.

Secondly, it gives the DM some guidance on how challenging to make the encounter (and, thus, what sort of rewards are reasonable to offer for it.) This avoids having to simply use DM fiat to decide that, "Sure, setting fire to that shed sounds like a good distraction, so it works and you draw off the orcs." Instead, the DM has some guidelines on how to actually see if the party pulls this off successfully.

To go back to the negotiation - sitting around a table rolling Diplomacy checks isn't a good skill challenge. (And using something close to that in the DMG was a bad call.) Instead, the skill challenge probably starts much earlier - the PCs arrive in town, and know they will need to meet with the Duke and convince him to help them with the upcoming orc invasion.

The party is told they have an audience with the duke that evening, and can present their requests to him then. They are, perhaps, warned that he doesn't help adventurers willy-nilly, and they may be well-served spending their time making sure they have prepared a persuasive argument.

At this point the dwarven fighter and halfling rogue might hit the streets, looking for info on the current mood of the town. Chatting with some shady pottery merchants, the rogue learns (via a Streetwise check) that the Duke's men have a favorite tavern in town. They hit the bar, and the dwarf engages the Duke's captain of the guard in a drinking contest (via an Endurance check), and by the end of it, finds out that the guards have little to do and fear their skills will grow rusty.

Meanwhile, the elven wizard visits the town library to learn more about the history of the duchy, the wars it has fought in, the lineage of the Duke himself.... etc.

By the time the audience comes, the party has a number of convincing arguments at hand (the army is ready for action, this is a threat the duchy has fought off before, etc), and during the evening they will present their arguments and make appropriate social checks to deliver them well.

That is more the goal of a skill challenge - not something to handle with a single Diplomacy check, but instead the framework for an entire scene and various opportunities for everyone to participate.

Now, why use it instead of just handling it all freeform? Again, mainly just to help give the DM guidance on directing how the scene goes. He knows that if the dwarf embarasses himself when drinking the guards, word will get back to the Duke and hinder the party's chances but not ruin it (1 failure). Whereas without the guidelines, the DM pretty much needs to arbitrarily decide the outcome of each event without any context. How much impact does the drinking have on the audience? How much info is in the library and what relevant info can be found in an afternoon? Etc.

Skill Challenges certainly aren't a necessity to running a game, but they are a useful tool. And the goal, at least, is for PCs to be deciding actions and roleplaying what they do... which is then resolved by appropriate checks. A group that just goes around the table and declares skills and rolls for them might be an unfortunate result of how some skill challenges are run (and can even work for some groups), but is not the real intent of the system.
 

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At this point the dwarven fighter and halfling rogue might hit the streets, looking for info on the current mood of the town.

Do you mean that they are......................

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G54lfxiid_w"]YouTube - Doobie Brothers - Takin' It To The Streets (High Quality)[/ame]

:lol::lol:

I gotta spread some around. Good post.
 

The key here is that 4e has a nice chart for the damage that such an attack should cause, and that only serves to make things easier. Because like we all know - if you can just ad-lib that sort of stuff, you can feel free to and you're not losing anything by having a nice guide.

Are you talking about p.42? Forgive, but I don't have the 4e DMG. From what I recall, it simply gave advice on how much damage should be appropriate for a challenge of the party's level. The problem, from what I recall, is that it does not give you examples of what it means in the game world . I have seen it lead to it being used in a manner the designers have said was not intended- taking something that was difficulty or damage at level or 1 or 2 and then upping the damage or DC when the characters reencounter it a later level when nothing has changed regarding it in the game world

If we are discussing other examples given, then 3e also gives examples of traps and DCs that can be used and extrapolated from.

Again, if I am recalling incorrectly, then I apologize and stand corrected.
 
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Wow, what an arrogant thread title.

Convince me that it's worth my time to explain to you why 4e is worth your time.
 

Instead, I feel like most of the responses here have the same sort of mentality as 'Don't ever eat broccoli if you don't like how these chefs make it,' as if everything I said was misconstrued into me not wanting to try anything and thinking that everything else is better than 4e.
Reading through the responses, I didn't get this impression at all.

It seems to me that you are trying to find a reason to like a game that you don't particularly like. To wit--

The fact of the matter is, 4e does look enjoyable in some ways. I've tried DMing it before, my friends have tried DMing it before, perfect strangers have tried DMing it before, and every time I just found myself disappointed with the way things were run.
What I'm reading is that you've given 4e a fair shake, and it's not doing it for you.

You remind me of my own experience with GURPS. I *love* the idea behind it. I love the source books. I love the mechanics. But I just really don't like to play it, and I really can't tell you exactly why. I've tried it many times, I've both GM'd it and played it, and I just can't get into it. 4e might be your GURPS. There's nothing wrong with that, and hey at least you've been open-minded enough to give it more than a fair shot. If you like the previous editions, stick with your favorite. Contrary to popular belief, the old editions may be out of print but they aren't dead. And if you liked 3.5, you might want to give Pathfinder a shot--I'm a big fan and I think they've done the 3.x line a lot of justice.

As an aside, what is this about Skill Challenges? I can't seem to wrap my head around them, and the DMG's example revolves around Diplomacy checks- something that would better served to be roleplayed out according to checks rather than "The king gives you useful information if you get five successes before three failures."
It really depends on the skill challenge, but for the most part you should be integrating them into your role-playing. And the amount of role-playing you do is going to depend on your players. I've played in groups where everyone was in-character all the time, and I've been in groups where the height of role-playing consisted of "I try to convince the baron that he should hire us." Whatever your group's take on role-playing is, you need to take it into account in the skill challenge. It's really no different than back in 1e days when a player would tell you she was looking for secret doors or trying to pass some monsters undetected. Skill challenges just formalize it a bit more mechanically. Nothing about the RPG aspect of the game has changed.

In fact, tangential to your concerns, I've read a lot of posts that pretty much boil down to "4e has made the game too mechanical." And while yeah, 4e is probably the "crunchiest" of the editions, I just don't get how that's meant to dampen role-playing opportunities. Certainly the level and quality of role-playing in my games hasn't been effected by 4e. Don't let a new mechanic like skill challenges fool you into thinking that it replaces role-playing. Every aspect of your game--whatever system you play--should be driven by the RPG aspect. If you let the mechanics drive your game then you might as well just go out and get yourself an MMO subscription, because at least then you don't have to bother with all the dice rolling. :)

[MENTION=11239]Gort[/MENTION]: I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, but I think the OP is using brevity in his thread title, not arrogance. His post was thoughtful and detailed. It's obvious that he's looking for answers rather than trying to poke his fingers in anyone's eyes. IMHO anyway.
 

Wow, what an arrogant thread title.

Convince me that it's worth my time to explain to you why 4e is worth your time.

Yeah, somehow I have given you too much XP lately, lol. It was pretty much my thought.

It is amusing how every time these posts come up there are 30 pages of responses that end up getting generated. I mean the guy don't like 4e. His dislike boils down to "it just doesn't suite the style of game I want to play". What needs to be said? What, at this point in time needs to be said justifying the existence of 4e or why we like it? If he wants to know why people do, he can ask nicely, or read the 186,000 old threads on the subject.
 

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