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Why is "I don't like it" not good enough?

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I, on the other hand, ask my players what they like to see in the next world/setting/campaign and work from there on out.
I tend to make suggestions rather than ask for suggestions from my players - but I'm certainly a lot closer to what you describe than I am to Shadzar.

when designing an adventure you do NOT know the final players you will be playing for an DO design in a vacuum of sorts
Well, this has not been true of any adventure I've GMed since 1990. In every case I've known who my players will be (maybe not all show up on the night, but that happens . . .) and who their PCs will be.

If something changes between designing an adventure and running it - eg I placed something in the setup intended to hook the player of the paladin, and now he's an apology for the session - then I will change that element of the adventure.

I also do a lot of adventure design - and especially the development of a scenario that builds on an initial statrting situation - on the fly. And this is always done with particular players and PCs in mind - namely, those present at the table/in the situation.
 

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This whole conversation, in my mind, revolves around trust.

<snip>

it's easier to gain trust if you give it first.
Hussar, I should have XPed you for this instead. Terrific post!

It would be nice if someone wrote a book or something (and idk, maybe someone already has) of a "Dummies guide to roleplaying" type, but for people who are already experienced roleplayers. Focus on the stuff that players and / or the GM may have learned, and take as a given, that might not always be true.
Well I think the essays and threads at The Forge do a pretty good job at this, but a lot of posters on ENworld seem not to like them.
 

I think part of the issue may be that not all players / groups are willing to actually come out and say that. Some players have the same "must game" problem that "must GM" GMs have, or else they have been brought to believe that actually telling the GM what they do or do not want is bad. I've had a lot of problems where the players won't give me any real clues as to what they want until I've done all the work of getting a campaign assembled, at which point I'm loathe to change what I had planned.
/snip for all sorts of goodness

Oh, hey totally. Getting feedback from players can be like pulling teeth sometimes. Anything other than "Hey, it was good" anyway. For the past little while, we've been doing round robin DMing in our group and I've made a point of trying to email a constructive criticism to the DM after each adventure. So far I have managed not to piss anyone off. :D

I'd LOVE it if someone did this for me. Even if I totally disagreed with what they said, I still want to hear it. So, in the interests of leading by example, that's why I now email an honest critique to the DM in question. Keep it polite and whatnot, but, be honest.

As I said, I don't think I've pissed anyone off yet. :D Here's hoping.

Fear the Boot, if you listen to podcasts, has a couple of episodes devoted to getting player feedback. Really worth the listen.
 


Shadzar - I honestly do feel your frustration. I've been there. When I first started building my online group is was a very painful experience. Players that would sound interested in joining, soak up lots of my time getting their character ready, only to flake out at the last minute. Or players who would try wildly innappropriate characters. Or players who wouldn't make the slightest effort to learn anything about the setting that was being played.

Oh yeah, I totally feel your pain. I used to be where you are now. But, I'm going to impart my little bit of wisdom that I gained from that experience. No amount of banning, building walls, or being hard nosed will make these people better players or people that you want to share your table with. It just won't. Their playstyles and yours (and mine) are just incompatable.

My solution was to advertise my games being the biggest douchebag I could possibly be. That weeded out 90% of the flakes. My online adds were brutal (and, I'm not exactly the most sensitive person in the world in the first place). Lots of THOU SHALT NOT and YOU WILL BE ON TIME, and that sort of thing.

Plus, I made a very coinscious effort to be very clear what the players could expect from me. This much time is what I'm willing to spend on the game, this is how much flexibility I will give you, this is how much prep I put into the game. So one and so forth.

Once I did that, I had a much better time recruiting players. If the player was willing to bull through all the assinine social roadblocks I put up, he or she was likely to be a pretty good player. At that point, I relaxed an awful lot and became much more likely to be flexible with people's concepts.

It worked for me. I've managed to put together a fantastic group with incredibly creative people who continually surprise me and make my game something I look forward to every single week.

But, man, it took a LOT of hair pulling to get to that point.

From the response of most people in regards to my approach to DMing and trying to find players it seems I am already on that path, and thanks for the hopeful words, it just seems that I am in a location that differs greatly in playstyles. Heavy min-maxers/ckarOps-ers hack-n-slashers. (Why i was looking for that good lobby feature out of a VTT)

and THANK YOU for NOT using that mention tag. That thing annoys when it is in a thread I am already in and reading. :lol:

I am putting myself out there as willing to run a game and make it work. Sadly only one person liked the idea to continue, and I am not really running solo games, nor are they in playing them, so looking for new players again once tax-season is over, and just winging it until then.

Some people can easily accept that a DM is that final arbiter without needing ANY justification, while others simply cannot.

It is those that can accept it, I find make the better players because you end up not having to communicate about things and finite elements, they seems to already be on the same page, or, like myself, like to find out in the game why something doesn't exist in it because there is some good plot going on there. ;)
I'd LOVE it if someone did this for me. Even if I totally disagreed with what they said, I still want to hear it. So, in the interests of leading by example, that's why I now email an honest critique to the DM in question. Keep it polite and whatnot, but, be honest.

Just stick both replies to you together for ease....

Comment cards are a lost art. I can't tell you how many places they have gone from, but I surely would love to get them and actually use stuff like that in ongoing campaigns for XP awards. But not just for the DM, but all players. Players can sort of assign an MVP award of XP to one player per session. You most times find the group is split on liking part of a game, but it is to be expected too.

Ahh the days of a constant group and devoting an hour after the game to discuss the session.

No, that doesn't mean such discussion magically makes why the DM doesn't like something come to light, or make it become included in the future either.
 
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Well, this has not been true of any adventure I've GMed since 1990. In every case I've known who my players will be (maybe not all show up on the night, but that happens . . .) and who their PCs will be.

There is the key to what I mentioned earlier about some people's narrow field of vision.

Take even a con, you offer Game X adventure Y, with pre-gens. Someone joining know what they will get and the DM isn't thrown any curves.

Remove the pregens and allow what they may, and you may not be able to make as a cohesive game out of when you had.

Go back a bit more and not pre-gens, but not catch-all either, and defined races and classes allowed, then you dont need to discus or know in advance what the players bring to the party.

"Door A can only be opened with a dwarf present in the party" should only be used when you know there will be a dwarf in the party. Hey fine some dont like those, but I still do those kind of things. But you have to use them responsibly.

So I bypass the catch-all, and either offer pre-gens for those not wanting to make a character at any game, or a game of all pregens for new players so they can get started playing the game where the game really is. OR for some games players pick the allowed options form a list, and they can converse with each other to make a party, or make individual characters that "meet-up to form a group" in the game.

Everyone picks an Elf Ranger it might be a very interesting game indeed for all.

So I may know the characters if offering an all pre-gen game, but not the players. In either of the other two games I will know neither.

Do you always run published adventures as-is with no changes, when you run them?
 

There is the key to what I mentioned earlier about some people's narrow field of vision.
Well, hang on, you're the one who said "when designing an adventure you do NOT know the final players you will be playing for an DO design in a vacuum of sorts". I denied that this is true of me. I didn't dispute that it might be true for some. If anything, you seem to be the one engaging in unwarranted generalisation here.

Do you always run published adventures as-is with no changes, when you run them?
I don't remeber ever having run a published adventure as-is. When I ran Rolemaster I had to convert adventures from D&D (various editions), other systems, or other versions of Rolemaster. Now that I run 4e I have to convert adventures from D&D (non-4e editions), from other systems, or - if I'm using a 4e adventure - I have to scale up or down.

And that's just the mechanical elements. I also have to make all the changes I want to locales, storyline, treasure, etc etc.

And when I make all these changes - that is, when I design my adventure - I do it knowing who my players are and who their PCs are. And the same is true when I design my own adventures from scratch rather than using published material as a starting point (which used to be more than half the time but now is probably in the neighbourhood of one-third of the time).
 

My solution was to advertise my games being the biggest douchebag I could possibly be. That weeded out 90% of the flakes. My online adds were brutal (and, I'm not exactly the most sensitive person in the world in the first place). Lots of THOU SHALT NOT and YOU WILL BE ON TIME, and that sort of thing.

I've also found that it's easier to write a "game available" ad using the direct approach. Might you accidentally alienate players who do fit because they're offended by the ad? Sure, but then you wouldn't want that person at your game anyway.

Saying the same things while being careful not to offend people takes more time. Mostly because the ad becomes more wordy.
 

Hussar,

Just wanted to "kuddo" you for your last few posts. That was exactly what I was talking about -- you take responsibility for your end. That means that the DM should try to see the player's POV, and the players should try to see the DM's POV. Demanding that the other side see your POV is a waste of time. If you find yourself needing to do so, perhaps you should seek other people to game with.


RC
 

Hussar,

Just wanted to "kuddo" you for your last few posts. That was exactly what I was talking about -- you take responsibility for your end. That means that the DM should try to see the player's POV, and the players should try to see the DM's POV. Demanding that the other side see your POV is a waste of time. If you find yourself needing to do so, perhaps you should seek other people to game with.


RC

Yes. Double-dog yes. Not least because if I'm going to get feedback (whether volunteered or dragooned), then I want it to ultimately be useful feedback. I'd rather drag useful feedback out of someone shy who happens to be compatible with my gaming style, than sift through loads of "feedback" that includes a lot of agenda setting or other social games.

Also, contra Rel, I'm really not that into listening to a new players social games in order to teach him or her that such stuff doesn't fly. I love to teach new people how to game, or gamers a new style (if they are interested). Teaching them social skills? Not so much. I find that this preference transcends gaming, and applies to everything I do. (I've done a lot of teaching careers and hobbies.)
 

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