Returning to the game

[DonAdam]

For first time players (and veterans, when it's been a while), I find this invaluable:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-fan...228749-d-d-4th-edition-combat-crib-sheet.html

 

[Nullzone]

For the record, I think D&D is better without morale in the RAW. DMs are empowered to decide when monsters run or surrender or fight to the death.

Morale can be a good corrective for DMs that have every creature fight to the death regardless of what is happening during the combat. But DMs should have the flexibility to decide to end combat or drag it on (for whatever reason) despite the dice.

I rather agree with this, but I might add that it can't hurt to perhaps try to involve the players in this process a little bit; prompt them to try to intimidate the creatures into surrendering or fleeing. Not only is this a naturally supported mechanic (Intimidate check vs target Will +10) that can easily be fudged around a bit, but it lets the players feel awesome when they scare the goblins off, rather than the goblins just spontaneously fleeing for their lives.

 

[mattcolville]

This was the way I was also leaning, mostly minions with a standard or two so that everyone wasn't a one hit/one kill enemy. Thanks for the responses and I'm glad to know I was headed in the right direction.

My main focus is to ease them into it, find out what really jumps out at them as fun, and use that to build their interest so they start building fond memories like I have of when I first started playing.

And also, that at least one of them gets into enough to where he/she wants to try a hand at DMing, allowing me to experience the game just as a PC again and not have all the added responsibility of being the DM. Not that I mind being DM, I look forward to the world building and populating. But I also miss being one who explores someone else's world.

Disagree on the minion suggestion. You've got a party of almost all strikers. Highly unsatisfying for fighting minions.

Minions make Controllers feel awesome, because they can kill large swaths of them at once.

Minions frustrate strikers because it doesn't matter how much damage you do, the minion dies. Doesn't matter if you bust out that 2d12 power or whatever, doesn't matter how well you roll damage, the minion dies.

Strikers like rolling lots of damage. Makes them feel bad-ass. They don't like finding out it doesn't matter how much damage they roll.

What you should avoid, rather, is enemy Controllers. Controllers can lock a group of strikers up and frustrate the hell out of them.

Stick with artillery and soldiers, use a Brute to give the strikers someone to really beat up on, throw in a minion or two just to give the party the idea of what they are and how they work.

 

[mattcolville]

For the record, I think D&D is better without morale in the RAW. DMs are empowered to decide when monsters run or surrender or fight to the death.

Morale can be a good corrective for DMs that have every creature fight to the death regardless of what is happening during the combat. But DMs should have the flexibility to decide to end combat or drag it on (for whatever reason) despite the dice.

I believe D&D4 teaches players bad lessons.

Playing with a group who are veteran D&D players across 5 editions of the game and 4 decades, because of D&D's focus on tactical encounter-oriented gameplay, when monsters from one encounter would, at my command, scurry off to the next room to alert their allies, the players rebelled.

I was breaking the notion of Encounters! I was taking two or three Encounters and turning them into one big encounter! What about our Encounter Powers, what about Milestones?!

Now the issue here is that the monsters were behaving in exactly the same way they'd behaved under every GM at the table for 30 years, and in exactly the same way all the players were used to. What had changed?

The system. That was the only variable. The one player who was new to the group and hadn't played as much D&D started using the phrase "the monsters want to win" as his way of expressing this--to him--radical notion.

 

[TerraDave]

Be nice, be nice, be nice...and patient, and nice. Explain, walk through, wave hands, let it go, be nice.

Party composition is actually pretty good. Protecting the artificer will become an issue, but the others will be responsive to this once they get that they need him (or her) for healing.

Keep what you are doing simple and classic. 4-5 kobolds, that kind of thing. Some minions are ok, but they are a twist (so, I hit this kobold 5 times to take it out, but this one just once...). I would also encourage the story to be upfront from the start. You want to show that this is a different kind of game. Don't want to overdo it, but some RP is good.

 

[TerraDave]

I believe D&D4 teaches players bad lessons.

Playing with a group who are veteran D&D players across 5 editions of the game and 4 decades, because of D&D's focus on tactical encounter-oriented gameplay, when monsters from one encounter would, at my command, scurry off to the next room to alert their allies, the players rebelled.

I was breaking the notion of Encounters! I was taking two or three Encounters and turning them into one big encounter! What about our Encounter Powers, what about Milestones?!

Now the issue here is that the monsters were behaving in exactly the same way they'd behaved under every GM at the table for 30 years, and in exactly the same way all the players were used to. What had changed?

The system. That was the only variable. The one player who was new to the group and hadn't played as much D&D started using the phrase "the monsters want to win" as his way of expressing this--to him--radical notion.

Hmm. The idea that each room is a seperate little reality goes all the way back in D&D. I have never DMed that way, but its a common approach.

You could argue 3E, with its encounter based XP, actually encouraged this, though again I didn't care.

4E is supposed to allow for encounters that go across multiple rooms, have reinforcements, and other "dynamics". It supposed to be less of orc and pie in 10' room.

 

[NewJeffCT]

I would go the opposite way than what some people are describing. About 9 months back, I was new to 4E and ran a group of 6 players through a couple of practice encounters before we started the campaign. Everybody except 1 person was new to 4E.

The players waltzed through a level one encounter and two level two encounters, including a level 2 solo in that practice session and barely broke a sweat.

I would go with at least two standard monsters to give each striker a target, maybe even two brutes or two soldiers. Then, mix in some minions and maybe one leader type. Maybe a couple of goblin cutters, a couple of goblin warriors, or maybe a warrior and a goblin skullcleaver or goblin sentry, plus a goblin hexer.

 

[MatthewJHanson]

I was breaking the notion of Encounters! I was taking two or three Encounters and turning them into one big encounter! What about our Encounter Powers, what about Milestones?!

All you need to do is give them an opportunity to regain their encounters during the fight. The easiest way is to just pick a point during the battle to let them refresh.

 

[NewJeffCT]

All you need to do is give them an opportunity to regain their encounters during the fight. The easiest way is to just pick a point during the battle to let them refresh.

I've been doing that in game for a while now - if the players defeat a "boss" bad guy or similar, they can get a "free" recharge of an encounter power, be it their own or an item.

I've always liked the "waves" of bad guys idea, and doing that allows me to string 3-4 good encounters in a row, and with milestones & recharges, I don't have to worry about overwhelming the players, or limiting them to just at wills.

 

[JakeJekel37]

Thank you, everyone, for the kind responses and the tips and ideas. I have prepared 6 "practice" encounters for tomorrow evening. Perhaps we'll get through them all, perhaps not. The encounters are a mix of extremely easy (and boring most likely) to what will probably amount to a TPK. They are as follows

1) All minions
2) 6 minions, 1 skirmisher, 1 brute
3) 2 skirmishers, 2 soldiers
4) 1 elite
5) 2 elites
6) 1 solo

This is what I had planned as of a couple nights ago, I think I'm going to tweak it a little before everyone shows up tonight. I'll probably cut out the all minion one, it does seem kind of pointless. Depending on how quickly any of these go, if we do get through them, and there is time, I might throw in a couple artilleries and maybe a controller just to see how things go.

Again, the sole purpose of this session (which everyone in the group knows) is to learn basic mechanics and to talk a bit about what ideas they might have for the game. It will allow me to see how quickly they pick things up and where to start with the initial encounters in the actual campaign.

Thanks everyone again for the input. Greatly appreciated.