Stonefang Pass help

I have been DMing for about 12 or so years. I think I've been playing for 14. I have NEVER even considered letting a TPK happen. Why would I destroy all my players fun? The TPK that DMs seem to glorify (especially sometimes on this site) is sad to me.

Glorify? Maybe on occasion, but I see few DMs who go out of their way to kill characters

If you encounter a TPK, you (or your players) did one of the following things:
A. You don't know your players well enough. If you know they jump head long into combat, why would you design something to destroy their fun completely? It is just a game, and if you don't have anyone to play it with, well your gonna sit at home by yourself playing WoW or Black Ops all day.

This is pretty harsh. Do you play with dice? And do they roll randomly?

B. You made an encounter that was to hard that your players refuse to run from.

That is hardly the DM's fault. Especially in the situation the OP described.


C. Your players acted foolishly and you now run the risk of losing your gaming group if they are not comfortable with a TPK. As a note, I've never been a part of a group that would accept a TPK and come back to that DM.

If I knew, absolutely KNEW that not matter how foolishly I played, my character would not die, I would seek a new DM. Success is the fun for me, and without failure, success means nothing.

To the OP:

I would, at the least, have new character go in and rescue the old ones, if they get TPKed again (or captured) Unless you want no real consequences for behavior.
 

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I have been DMing for about 12 or so years. I think I've been playing for 14. I have NEVER even considered letting a TPK happen. Why would I destroy all my players fun? The TPK that DMs seem to glorify (especially sometimes on this site) is sad to me.

If you encounter a TPK, you (or your players) did one of the following things:
A. You don't know your players well enough. If you know they jump head long into combat, why would you design something to destroy their fun completely? It is just a game, and if you don't have anyone to play it with, well your gonna sit at home by yourself playing WoW or Black Ops all day.
B. You made an encounter that was to hard that your players refuse to run from.
C. Your players acted foolishly and you now run the risk of losing your gaming group if they are not comfortable with a TPK. As a note, I've never been a part of a group that would accept a TPK and come back to that DM.

D. Bad player dice rolls.

E. Good DM dice rolls.

F. Poor decision making, sometimes not by "players", but by a single player.

G. An excellent move by an NPC.

H. Poor PC design.

I. An unexpected action (but not obviously foolish or bad) by a player that results in something bad happening nonetheless (e.g. like a PC going past the enemy lines mid-encounter and falling into a pit trap that the PCs normally wouldn't have gotten to until after the encounter, hence, taking the PC temporarily out of the action and giving a major advantage to the NPCs).


I've been playing and DMing for over 32 years and the game also isn't fun if the DM just spoon feeds the players' bad decisions and habits. Other players can get frustrated because the DM won't let the players who make mistakes learn from their mistakes.


In today's game, the party Wizard was about to do Burning Hands on 6 foes. Even after hearing the Wizard player saying that she was going to do that, the party Slayer decides to shift back a step away from the foe she was engaged with, and then charge a different foe, just to get a slight bonus to hit. The Slayer was now in the way and this effectively prevented the Wizard from doing the Burning Hands without also targeting the Slayer until about 3 rounds later. At that point, it was against fewer foes and a lot less effective. This decision probably cost the group at least 2 healing surges.

In a fight later on, the party Bard decides to attack a healthy foe when there were 2 bloodied and 1 healthy foe available. As it turned out, this allowed one of the two bloodied foes to get an additional successful attack in because the next attack on it didn't kill it (but would have) and caused more damage to a different PC. Why did he do this? Because he didn't want the Rider effect on his Encounter power to go to waste in case he killed one of the two bloodied foes. As it turned out, that wouldn't have happened because he didn't (and couldn't even with a critical) do enough damage. Even if he would have lost his Rider by killing the foe, that wouldn't have mattered because there would have been one less foe to handle. The ultimate Rider is one that kills a foe. This cost the group a healing surge as well.

Here's two example from my game today where the players were more interested in a minor gain (a bonus to hit in one case and avoiding losing a rider effect in the other), didn't take into account the bigger picture, and it cost the team overall.

Poor decision making happens in the game quite often. It won't get better if the DM doesn't allow the players to have the normal consequences of their actions occur.

As a player, it destroys my fun when the DM goes out of his way to protect the PCs of the players who are making bad decisions. I want them to get better at their tactics and that doesn't happen if the DM prevents the consequences of their actions in the name of "their fun".

As a player, why exactly does their fun trump my fun? To me, one of the worse things a DM can do is fudge dice or scenarios to protect the PCs. As a player, I feel that my suspension of disbelief is jarred when the universal laws of physics shift and the DM does a minor or major deus ex machina.


As for your last comment on "I've never been a part of a group that would accept a TPK and come back to that DM", all I can say is: Wow.

That's the most self privileged and player entitled comment that I've heard in a long time. Especially when one is discussing a TPK because the PCs ran deeper into the dungeon after the DM already protected them from a TPK.

Personally, I wouldn't want to play with a DM who goes out of his way to protect his players from their own stupidity (and sometimes it's not stupidity, but a belief that the DM is there to bail them out, so it's ok to do whatever silly or stupid thing that the player thinks to do). It's one thing to make a mistake and hope that the DM helps bail you out, but it's another to feel entitled to having the DM bail you out to the point that you wouldn't let that guy DM anymore if he wouldn't do it. Unbelievable. :eek:


Everyone makes mistakes at the gaming table. But if they make mistakes big enough to result in a TPK and the mistakes were made by the players and not by the DM, then the players shouldn't expect to be saved by the DM.

These players appeared to have made 3 such mistakes from what the OP posted:

1) Trying to scare some foes and alerting other foes.
2) Heading deeper into the dungeon instead of out the way they came.
3) Ignoring the warnings of the dwarf.


The fact that they rolled poorly and the DM rolled well was not a mistake on their part and he was reasonable to prevent a TPK because of that. But they kept pushing it after that and he's now being overly generous to them. IMO.
 

First off, I should add that my players are three of my best friends. The risk of them quitting to seek another game is zero, but the value of establishing weight to their actions is important. Out of three, only one player has deep RPG/D&D experience back in 2e, so he's used to rolling up new PCs at the drop of a hat.

During the week, he player responsible for instigating this entire scenario by spooking the Orc sentries sent out a humorous in-character email apologizing for his rash behavior as an inexperienced hafling sorcrerer still learning what it takes to be an adventurer (his previous PC died as a result of an unfortunate rope climbing incident). It was a good ice breaker after one of the other players (the newest to RPGs) was pretty upset by the outcome of their group follies. She (writing back in character) apologized for her dire behavior and suggested that if it was their time to go, she was prepared to die fighting by their sides.

At this juncture I see no plot/play/experience value in just running the encounters as planned and killing the PCs. If this had been an important plot-related adventure, rather than an in-between one, I would strongly consider their deaths to help enhance the BBEG/plot but the link would be even more unbelievable than a "deus ex machina".

Even a rescue mission with new PCs would feel out of place because they are far from their friends and base. With two days having passed, the Dwarf Prince who sent them could stumble upon another group of adventurers and that could form the rescue, but it would be a lot of work to roll up new characters for two encounters, and using pregens from me would tip them off that this was equally temporary. And if they are going to roll new PCs, I'd rather take the opportunity to switch gears in the campaign and pull them into another aspect of the story arcs.

My plan is to have a brief discussion at the start of today's session. I'm going to be frank about the topics discussed here; I do not want them to feel like the DM is going to save their collective asses at every turn and that while this particular encounter may have been very difficult they should not assume that I'm simply going to run them through a 3-encounter adventure every week. They need to be wise about when to run and when to fight -- and when they run, where best to run.

I'll then recap the scenario, present options before them and collectively decide. It's as much their game as it is mine.

1) Continue with their current PCs. There will be costs to pay.
>>I will nerf the follow up encounter and allow the heroes into the protection ritual. There they will be able to perform a ritual to Moradin and Torog (added bonus that they HATE Torog) to sacrifice magical items and regain healing surges based on success rolls. I liked the idea about about the spirit of a Shadowed Chain cleric, so I may introduce that as well.

2) End this chapter and cut away to new heroes fighting for the same cause.
>>The heroes are captured by the Orcs and eventually Stonefang breaks free. We treat this as a cliffhanger season finale and then spend the session generating new PCs and setting them up to continue the general fight.

3) We call this campaign quits for awhile and start up a new one.
>>This isn't unappealing to me, since I did a terrible job in my first romp as DM and would love to apply my lessons learned already. I'd also be happy to hand the reins to one of the other players, two of which already had campaigns in progress that puttered out.

I appreciate everyone's input. I will let you all know how it goes.
 

D. Bad player dice rolls.

E. Good DM dice rolls.

F. Poor decision making, sometimes not by "players", but by a single player.

G. An excellent move by an NPC.

H. Poor PC design.

I. An unexpected action (but not obviously foolish or bad) by a player that results in something bad happening nonetheless (e.g. like a PC going past the enemy lines mid-encounter and falling into a pit trap that the PCs normally wouldn't have gotten to until after the encounter, hence, taking the PC temporarily out of the action and giving a major advantage to the NPCs).

Everything you describe results in PLAYER death, not a TPK. If one player makes a terrible decision and everyone follows, I would still create an out for the players that did not make that decision. I try to have a campaign that has a lot of story tied into the characters my players create. If the characters die every week, the story starts over and what fun is that?
 

Everything you describe results in PLAYER death, not a TPK. If one player makes a terrible decision and everyone follows, I would still create an out for the players that did not make that decision. I try to have a campaign that has a lot of story tied into the characters my players create. If the characters die every week, the story starts over and what fun is that?

Nothing I described results in player death.

It might result in one or more PC deaths.

So, if a PC falls unconscious, the party Leader is out of heals, and the rest of the PCs are bloodied and half of the NPCs are not bloodied, do you suddenly have each NPC fall over dead with each successful hit? Or do you have the players work the problem out for themselves?

Nobody here was talking about having characters die every week. That's hyperbole.

We were discussing the DM fudging the encounter in the player's favor when his players make bad enough decisions (possibly combined with bad dice rolls) that it might result in a TPK. We were also discussing your opinion that if the DM does TPK the party, that you and your group would never allow him to be DM again.

When did the DM become the babysitter for the other adults at the table? How is it that the players are not mature enough to recognize the fact that they made serious mistakes and their PCs did not survive?

Personally, I prefer a challenge when I play and not just a shared unending story where death is not an option. I'm not writing a shared book with a happy ending. I'm interacting where my PC's death is a possibility. Dungeons and Dragons, the very name has a threat of death in it.

I like puzzles and traps and challenges. That doesn't mean that the DM should just screw his players, but then again, it doesn't mean that the DM should go out of his way to protect the PCs either. That's the players' job, not the DMs. The DM's job is to creating an interesting scenario and give the players a chance to interact both positively and negatively in that scenario.

I suspect that many DMs see that PCs reaping both the rewards and consequences of their actions is a fairly typical way to play the game. Not just the rewards. And consquences are not limited to PC death. It can also be death of favored NPCs, the loss of acquisitions, the loss of prestige or reputation. All types of consequences. Just like all types of rewards.
 

As a recap, it went pretty well.

I presented the options, talked about the importance of realizing that their characters are not immortal and let the players chat in private while I shuffled some papers in the other room. They discussed and decided that if their characters were going to die, they wanted to see it happen. If it was their time to go, they would accept that.

The ritual to sacrifice their magic items in exchange for health went well. Even with that and removing almost all of the follow up encounter, the original encounter almost killed them and Duggin (the dwarf NPC who wasn't supposed to join in the fight until later).

This made me realize that I was careless in assessing encounter budgets against the PCs. I also need to remember that with just 3 PCs, four Artillery monsters focusing area attacks can be BRUTAL; I had to completely remove the Orc Archers' area attacks of the battle would have been over swiftly again. Thankfully they're Orcs and an Ogre, so they were mostly in it for blood and not extremely tactical.

It worked out well and after learning about the imminent arrival of an Earth Titan, seemed pretty concerned about the potential for survival if a pre-encounter was this hard.

I don't think they felt coddled and I don't think I was too light on them.

Again, appreciate all the wisdom.
 

Everything you describe results in PLAYER death, not a TPK. If one player makes a terrible decision and everyone follows, I would still create an out for the players that did not make that decision.
In my game a TPK happens after more than 50% of the party died: At that point the rest often decides it's better for the game if everyone is starting from scratch.

Since it's a team-based game there's usually little point to continue playing the sole survivor (though that does happen from time to time, too).
 

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