How is the Wizard vs Warrior Balance Problem Handled in Fantasy Literature?

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

It wouldn't be to everyone's tastes, but you've got me thinking about a D&D edition (or just variant) in which the spellcasting classes' powers/abilities were innately superior to those of the martial classes--but in which the "assumed level" of magic items was explicitly higher for the martial classes, and in which there were far more magic items that could benefit a non-caster than a caster.

That was called 3.x. Really. Wizards were more powerful, but a fighter's items were more useful. Overall... wizards were still more powerful.

That might work for some people, but I'm not a fan of items. My current campaign is set in Dark Sun. It's inherent bonus-using. The rogue PC has a throwing dart that copies a 3rd-level magic item (one that does ongoing 5 fire damage once per day, anyone know what that's called?) but it's a non-magic poison dart that does ongoing poison damage instead. Oddly, I was actually praised for having that a daily item rather than a make a Nature check item, perhaps due to the lower bookkeeping.

In D&D terms you might say that a demon or other supernatural creature has damge reduction (or even invulnerability) against normal attakcs, but vulnerability to magical ones. Hit it with an ordiary sword and it has little to no effect. Hit is with a magical sword or a spell of rebuke and it suffers - moreso than a mortal human being would.

It was almost the opposite in gameplay. A wizard beats a warrior easily; cast Hold Monster, or Greater Invisibility followed by Lightning Bolt, etc, whereas a demon can probably resist half the wizard's spells. (A warrior might have the right weapon, or can just power through DR; given how weak monster ACs often were, Power Attack was a very powerful feat.)

 

[Mouseferatu]

That was called 3.x. Really. Wizards were more powerful, but a fighter's items were more useful. Overall... wizards were still more powerful.

I'm talking about a level of difference far beyond what 3E had. But I think going into any more detail here would probably qualify as a threadjack.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

... who soloed a Balor.

And died in the process. So the GM resurrected him and gave him a half-celestial template as a reward.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

And died in the process. So the GM resurrected him and gave him a half-celestial template as a reward.

Being able to match a wingless balor is still pretty impressive.

Gandalf had some sort of template beforehand (something like an aasimar; the power level wasn't at all clear) and then got his half-celestial template. Or something.

Also, didn't he cast a few different spells later on?

 

[pemerton]

The trend I've noticed though in fiction is that even high level fictional casters are not as potentially powerful as 3.x casters. Fictional magic users may often have very powerful evocation type magic--fireballs, lightning bolts, clouds of acid, earthquake type stuff, etc) but even the most powerful fictional magic users don't usually have the kind of 'game breaking' spells that D&D magic users can get. Things like wish, polymorph, time travel, resurrection, etc.

Fictional magic users rarely have the versatility of D&D wizards, either.

Ged in the Earthsea trilogy is pretty versatile and pretty powerful - illusions, mending, weather summoning, battle magic, shapechanging, healing, able to travel to the plane of death, etc.

That said, I think there could be a perfectly viable Earthsea RPG with both wizards and warriors. It just wouldn't use D&D mechanics.

I find it interesting that much of the time when Conan faces seriously magical opposition, he survives it and conquers by virtue of the magic items he has in that adventure (the phoenix on the sword, the black seers of yimsha) in addition to his guts and strength.

Which is pretty much the way that high level D&D fighters have to overcome such foes too.

D&D is a game where magic items are not just important, they are vital.

Could D&D abandon its reliance on magic items without ceasing to be D&D? I really don't know. It could be that it is too much of the D&D 'vibe', or 'dna'.

For me, D&D is for gung ho, magic items up the wazoo style gaming; for other games which I wanted to be more like most fantasy literature which I've read, I'd choose other systems, to be honest

Good observations. And I tend to agree that D&D is for a certain sort of gung ho fantasy, although items (other than enhancement bonuses, which are just part of the character build) don't yet loom that large in my 4e game.

It wouldn't be to everyone's tastes, but you've got me thinking about a D&D edition (or just variant) in which the spellcasting classes' powers/abilities were innately superior to those of the martial classes--but in which the "assumed level" of magic items was explicitly higher for the martial classes, and in which there were far more magic items that could benefit a non-caster than a caster.

In HeroWars/Quest you'd do this by having "fighters" load up on item descriptors while "wizards" load up on sorcerous descriptors.

In D&D you'd do it as you describe, and you'd have to get rid of anti-magic/disjunction as a routine magic-item purging device. And also be very wary of item-stealing events occurring.

The problem with this is that the fighter swiftly loses all identity other then "Guy with all the magic items."

Provided that they are items that the fighter applies by way of being a fighter (weapons, shields, boots of speed etc) then that's not a bug but a feature of the game being envisaged here.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Being able to match a wingless balor is still pretty impressive.

Gandalf had some sort of template beforehand (something like an aasimar; the power level wasn't at all clear) and then got his half-celestial template. Or something.

Also, didn't he cast a few different spells later on?

Gandalf was the archangel Michael

 

[Votan]

I think that a lot of magic in myth and legend had the unfortunate tendency either to corrupt or to go horribly wrong. Look at what happened when Frodo used the power of the One Ring at the end of the novel Return of the King -- his curse had a very unfortunate effect. Or consider what happened to Merlin at the beginning of Excalibur. As a result, the wise wizard thinks very carefully before using magic or is very desperate.

 

[Dice4Hire]

Well, the main thing fantasy literature has is limits and not many mages. If you have 2 of the 7 mages on the continent in your adventuring party, it is a little silly.

I think mages would be better with limits, something that has been steadily trending down with every edition of D&D. A chance of getting hurt, or the spell failing, or something else would make non-magical choices far more appealing.

 

[pemerton]

Well, the main thing fantasy literature has is limits and not many mages. If you have 2 of the 7 mages on the continent in your adventuring party, it is a little silly.

Why? I expect my current 4e game to end up having 5 of the X demigods in the continent in the party, where X is an indeterminate but fairly small number.

 

[I'm A Banana]

It wouldn't be to everyone's tastes, but you've got me thinking about a D&D edition (or just variant) in which the spellcasting classes' powers/abilities were innately superior to those of the martial classes--but in which the "assumed level" of magic items was explicitly higher for the martial classes, and in which there were far more magic items that could benefit a non-caster than a caster.

Why not go the other way with it?

Fighters need to depend on magic swords they find in dungeons.

Wizards need to depend on magic spells they find in dungeons.

No one is going around forging +5 vorpal swords, no one is going around writing down Wish from scratch, characters don't automatically gain diverse powers and abilities as they level up, they need to gain them in dungeons (via treasure).

There's also the other direction: that everyone crafts what they need as they level up. You get Fireball, I get +3 Weapons (you don't get them), our priest gets Cure Light Wounds, and we don't get any treasure.

I think the former would be a boatload of fun to play, even though it futzes with story-minded and optimization-minded players.

The latter would be better for them, but it would limit the random awesome you get.

Perhaps a hybrid, where you get to craft/create/"gain from leveling" some quantity of your abilities, and you HAVE to find the rest....

Fighters find swords (and gain exploits).
Mages find tomes (and devise spells).
Clerics discover relics (and are awarded prayers).
Druids befriend beasts (and practice rituals).
Necromancers devour souls (and develop experiments).

The former is treasure you find, the latter is stuff that you gain automagically with levels, but all character types depend on both ways of gaining power (rather than fighters having it all from random treasure drops, and mages having it all from developing their own spells).