How is the Wizard vs Warrior Balance Problem Handled in Fantasy Literature?

[Mouseferatu]

I find it interesting that much of the time when Conan faces seriously magical opposition, he survives it and conquers by virtue of the magic items he has in that adventure (the phoenix on the sword, the black seers of yimsha) in addition to his guts and strength.

Which is pretty much the way that high level D&D fighters have to overcome such foes too.

It wouldn't be to everyone's tastes, but you've got me thinking about a D&D edition (or just variant) in which the spellcasting classes' powers/abilities were innately superior to those of the martial classes--but in which the "assumed level" of magic items was explicitly higher for the martial classes, and in which there were far more magic items that could benefit a non-caster than a caster.

IOW, you'd wind up with the same class balance as 4E, but the sources of said power would be very different.

Again, not for everyone--not even necessarily to my tastes, except when I'm in a particular mood--but a potentially interesting variant, I think.

(And I realize that, in older editions, there were more fighter/thief-friendly items than wizard-friendly. But I'm talking about a much greater difference, with a much wider array of item abilities and powers. Enough to account for a substantial portion of class balance between martial and arcane characters on the same XP progression path.)

 

[ProfessorCirno]

I find it interesting that much of the time when Conan faces seriously magical opposition, he survives it and conquers by virtue of the magic items he has in that adventure (the phoenix on the sword, the black seers of yimsha) in addition to his guts and strength.

Which is pretty much the way that high level D&D fighters have to overcome such foes too.

D&D is a game where magic items are not just important, they are vital. High level fighter types in games of OD&D, AD&D I used to play would have a variety of magic items which helped them in all manner of situations, and enabled them to play 'jack of all trades' just as much as the wizards. Of course, this was before 3e decided how much magic people 'should' have, and introduced a 'big n' magic items which sucked up the level-appropriate magic, but I digress

Cheers

The problem with this is that the fighter swiftly loses all identity other then "Guy with all the magic items."

3e wasn't the only one to perpetuate this but it was the biggest offender - you hit issues where the higher level the fighter is, the more valuable his magic items are then the fighter himself.

 

[Plane Sailing]

True - but that has been D&D since it's earliest days! Always the biggest problem with it since day 1, really.

It was among the reasons why I abandoned D&D for RQ (which on the one hand gives most people low level magic ability but doesn't have any really powerful magic in D&D terms)

Could D&D abandon its reliance on magic items without ceasing to be D&D? I really don't know. It could be that it is too much of the D&D 'vibe', or 'dna'.

For me, D&D is for gung ho, magic items up the wazoo style gaming; for other games which I wanted to be more like most fantasy literature which I've read, I'd choose other systems, to be honest

 

[ProfessorCirno]

True - but that has been D&D since it's earliest days! Always the biggest problem with it since day 1, really.

It was among the reasons why I abandoned D&D for RQ (which on the one hand gives most people low level magic ability but doesn't have any really powerful magic in D&D terms)

Could D&D abandon its reliance on magic items without ceasing to be D&D? I really don't know. It could be that it is too much of the D&D 'vibe', or 'dna'.

For me, D&D is for gung ho, magic items up the wazoo style gaming; for other games which I wanted to be more like most fantasy literature which I've read, I'd choose other systems, to be honest

I think it definately can - Dark Sun isn't exactly a magicpalooza, and it's staunchly D&D.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Back on topic, after I wandered into the woods for a bit, the balance between martial mastery and sorcery is distinctly and explicitly in favor of the former in Zelazny's Amber books.

Even in the second series, whose protagonist is in fact a sorcerer, the emphasis is on how much of a pain in the ass workable, fight-ready sorcery is. In the first series, the protagonist basically dismisses sorcery -- as a fight-ready tool -- out of hand. (Of course, that's well before he finds out exactly who and what the BBEG is ... )

 

[occam]

So Gandalf generally use only weak magic, but sometimes could really dish it out. (No, he didn't summon the wave at Rivendell, he just touched it up.) He was more of a ritual-using heroic sage, really.

Huh, I'd never thought about modeling Gandalf that way. In fact, I wonder if a 4e version of LotR would best be done with only martial classes available, and what sets Gandalf apart are his age and connections, and the Ritual Caster feat....

 

[SSquirrel]

I'm surprised I haven't seen a mention of Raymond Feist's Riftwar series. In those books, magic is far and away the stronger method. If you're a warrior like say, Tomas, you could stand up to Pug, but not too many below his level. Then again, pretty much any other warrior is below Tomas's level heh.

 

[GameDoc]

Sometimes the balancing factor for wizards is that they are very powerful against specific types of obstacles or foes (generally magical or supernatural ones), but have no more power over the rest of the universe than any other person. In other words you fight magic with magic and mundane with mundane.

A wizard can bind or banish a ghost or demon that others are powerless against. But he can't do much against a mundane evil warrior with a sword unless he's also a trained warrior himself and has good weapon at hand. If he has any power over mortals or the natural world it's either brief and minor or slow and insidious. Hexes, curses, potions, or hedge magic. And there are protections to be found from these by consulting another mage or sporting a charm or holy symbol.

Likewise, his buddy the fighter migh carve the evil warrior up handily, but against a raging demon, he'd be ineffective. All he can do is get in it's face and try do distract it so the wizard can hit it with magic. Or he needs a wizard to enchant his weapons and armor so he can stand toe to toe with a magical monster.

In D&D terms you might say that a demon or other supernatural creature has damge reduction (or even invulnerability) against normal attakcs, but vulnerability to magical ones. Hit it with an ordiary sword and it has little to no effect. Hit is with a magical sword or a spell of rebuke and it suffers - moreso than a mortal human being would.

I see this as the anser to "Gandalf was a 5th level magic user that soloed a Balor." In the setting, the Balor is particularly vulernable to magic, as was the Nazgul that Gandalf turned back at Pellenor Fields. Those methods were not useful against the orcs of Moria so he had to rely on his sword.

Also, the more powerful the magic, the more specific it's effects. The Witch King could not be harmed by any man, but the loophole in the magic that protected him made him totally vulnerable against a female warrior. You get that kind of powerful, specific protetion, or you get something minor like a +2 weapon that is more likely to hit and do more damage against just about anything, but isn't going to cleave through a castle gate or hew the peak off a mountaintop.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Huh, I'd never thought about modeling Gandalf that way. In fact, I wonder if a 4e version of LotR would best be done with only martial classes available, and what sets Gandalf apart are his age and connections, and the Ritual Caster feat....

Quite honestly if you look at mythology, wizards are characterized far more often as sages then they are world shattering WMDs. The classic wizard is a bard, not a...well, wizard

Clerics on the other hand, they're the ones that shatter the universe. Bards and Invokers seems to be the path mythology takes.

 

[WizarDru]

I'm surprised I haven't seen a mention of Raymond Feist's Riftwar series. In those books, magic is far and away the stronger method. If you're a warrior like say, Tomas, you could stand up to Pug, but not too many below his level. Then again, pretty much any other warrior is below Tomas's level heh.

You may not know it but Feist's Riftwar Saga, like Brust's Jhereg series, was actually BASED on their D&D games. So that's kind of the tail wagging the dog, there.