Discouraging the 15 minute adventuring day

[Blue]

Not sure if the title is misleading, but really I'm trying to encourage the more-than-15-minute adventuring day and looking for some feedback. What do you think of this:

For each milestone, XP awarded for encounters (combat and skill) after that point will increase by 5%.

Let's the players push on if they want, hold back if they don't.

(Assume I'm being smart about treasure packets, so they'll get a full level's worth every level, regardless if they level a bit earlier.)

Potential negative I could see is if players horde dailies and other resources making combats stretch a bit, but I don't think that'll be a real issue.

Is 5% per milestone extra XP enough to motivate? If an "average" adventuring day is 5 encounters, pretending they all have an equal XP budget we're looking at around 4% extra per day (+0%, +0%, +5%, +5%, +10% = 20% / 5) which isn't all that much. Though often harder battles are later in the day, so that number might be misleading. (Note also 5 encounters includes skill challenges, not just 5 combat encounters.)

 

[storm_wolf]

I have usually found that using the story or situation itself can reduce the PC's motivation to try the 15 minute adventuring day. I am currently running the PC's in my game through what essentially breaks down to a chase/escape scene, they are aware if they stop to rest, they will be overrun by the things chasing them, if they keep running they may escape and by doing so save the town they are from. The path is not clear, however it's better than trying to stop several hundred undead and kobolds. Some of the players constantly complain that they need a rest because they are short on dailies, or the striker is almost out of healing surges, the rest push on because they are afraid if what's following them.

 

[Nytmare]

A DM shouldn't have to rely on narrative fixes to counter the built in mechanical benefits of going nova.

I've been contemplating some kind of system where players start without any daily powers or action points after an extended rest.

I used to be big on using XP bonuses, but I've come to the conclusion that they're lousy motivators for my players.

 

[LostSoul]

Hmm...

*

We're just about to face the first fight in the day. It's a standard encounter, so we take it easy. We win without much effort; maybe a single Daily is used, and a few guys are down some Surges.

Now we have the choice: rest to refresh those spent resources, or push on and gain some extra XP.

Let's weigh the options.

Gain extra XP: Let's assume we push on and get a hefty 40% bonus. Yay! What happens? The challenges we face scale up to meet our new level. A new orc raider is added to room 5. The DCs for the skill challenge are higher. The solo boss monster is levelled up. We haven't made the challenge easier. Our effectiveness is the same as before.

We do have new skills, feats, and powers, however, and the DM is supposed to tailor the encounters to our abilities. So we've changed the encounter to fit with our changed characters.

Refresh resources: We want to do this because we don't want to suffer a TPK.

TPKs are the only way in which the game responds to failure. If the whole party is wiped out, we as players don't have any more choices than we did before. (Well, we have to make new PCs, but not at a higher level - we could build the exact same PCs if we felt like it. We can start over from scratch, but we could do that anyway by killing off our PC.) If any one of us survives, great. We get some XP and get closer to opening up more choices to make.

*

So we have to balance the risk of a TPK against the chance to expand the colour of our character's skills, feats, and powers. But is this a real choice?

If we rest we don't suffer the TPK and we get some XP. Not as much, but we still get it. Our colour will still expand, just not as fast. So that's not the real choice; the real choice is between risking a TPK and changing the colour of the upcoming encounter.

Do I want to have Come and Get It when I face the orc leader? Do I want to see how cool that would be in that specific encounter, or do I want to wait until some future encounter to use it?

But! The DM is tailoring encounters to my abilities. My power should be cool no matter when I choose it; the encounters should make my guy look awesome. But if I push on and grab some extra XP, my guy could level up and gain new abilities before the DM has the chance to tailor those encounters to my new abilities. Do I want to give the DM time to tailor the encounter to my PC, or do I want to surprise the DM with my new abilities?

So the choice is: avoid a TPK and give the DM time to tailor the encounter to my abilities, or surprise the DM with a new ability?

*

That's my analysis. I think extra XP will fall short unless you change some of the game's assumptions.

I should also note that the game doesn't care about "story" - what happens in the game world. It's absent from the game's economy. That's one of the assumptions you can change.

 

[Arlough]

I have actually done away with XP in my game simply because I didn't want the players roving around slaughtering things just so they could get to the next level. So I just announce to them when they get a new level (these are set at certain points in the story, similar to the upgrades in Assassin's Creed) and that leaves them free to take actions that make sense from a character point of view.

So, not even having that tool, how do I make a crowd of normally risk averse people take actions that are risky? I don't give them a "safe" option.

Of course you can set up camp, but you won't be able to start you extended rest until 12 hours after your last rest. (PHB1.263) And at that point, you will need 6 hours of uninterrupted (by fighting or skill challenges) rest. Oh, and the area is rife with enemies that will kill you if they find you, and some are looking for you.
Oh, you want to go back to town, sure. But the distance you traveled to get out here is great, and the battle you just had, if nothing else, A)has made you all smell like prey or B)will draw some attention when those scouts don't report back.​

Even an encounter with minions can disrupt an extended rest, forcing the players to start over. And if they are going back to an inn to rest, well the story could have gotten out that they have loots in their room that every cutpurse in the area wants. Even if the burglars only wake up the party, but then run away the moment the party shows signs of fighting, the rest has been inturrpted.

Basically, you make it more costly to stay than to press on. When they get to the new town, the first night is likely to be uneventful, but after that...
If they are like most other adventurers, they will be flashing gold everywhere and within no time you will have a very valid story reason to have them become the target of some very unsavory types. And all you need to do is get them to get up. Equal level NPCs are only a little better at stealing stuff than NPCs who are lower in level.

Sure, that guy was a minion 5 levels lower than you, so you were able to dispatch him with ease once you got out of bed, but you did get out of bed.​

And that minion, he really was only worth a pittance of XP, so it really shouldn't foul up your player's level progression through the story. In fact, I would rule that something like that wasn't a viable threat (to their persons) and therefore is not worth any XP and doesn't count towards a milestone.
If they decide to hang out and clean up the town, then they risk running afoul of the local mafia or thieves guild, and running into some more deadly encounters with even fewer safe places. Which could lead to another great plot line or story as the adventurers become the new defacto rulers of the area and are asked to deal with ever wider ranging challenges from dragons taking sheep to invading armies that need to be turned away.

 

[TheUltramark]

I am going to have a ghost follow the players around, and if they think they are gonna take an extended after each fight, ooops...ghost attacks

I'll let you know how that works

 

[Locien]

Is the party afraid of being overwhelmed? It may be that you simply have to push them a bit, gently telling them that they're being too cautious. And some of the other advice here about harassing them, that may simply give the players PTSD and make matters worse-if they don't feel safe in town or where ever then they'll simply hole up in a more secure location; the game could easily degenerate into you trying to send things to break them out of their fortress and them trying to keep you out. That could be an actual game model, but if you all want them to adventure, then just honestly and frankly tell them they're being too timid first. If they are being too wasteful with their dailys then try instituting some resource management beyond their attacks-they have X days worth of resources to accomplish something in a little over X/2 days-they can't stop after each encounter or they fail.

 

[Unwise]

I'm not expert on this topic, but I generally have problems the other way. My players are good at keeping timing in perspective and I generally have them rushing towards some goal.

For instance, I did well at adding a sense of urgency in to Keep on the Shadowfell, but it came back to bite me. PCs ran past rooms that they thought were non-vital to stopping Kalarel, they headed straight towards him, figuring they would save the world then come back for those rooms. This stuffed me up in a couple of ways though.

Firstly, they did not feel free to take an extended rest, even after it was well deserved and they had found a nice hidding place to do so. It felt a little forced to heavily hint that it as OK to do so. Secondly, they got through the second last fight by the skin of their teeth. They could hear Kalarel chanting in the next room though, so they engaged him with half of the party already bloodied and little to no healing left. Although those are specific examples, this is a common occurance.

I find that random encounters on the road between two places are utterly trivial, as the PCs have no reason not to blow all of their daily powers. It can be fun though, as it lets them warm up with an easier fight, or lets them take on something they otherwise could not.

The way I have been working around these issues, is to make the consequences of them delaying clear to them in a mechanical way. For instance, I set up the bandit camp they are invading, laying out all the minitures in a deadly effective array. I then say "because you got here so quickly, the camp is in disarray and some of the bandits have not rejoined them. Pick 5 guys to slide 10 squares each. Pick 3 guys to take off the table". This adds a fun tacitcal choice and shows them the consequences of their actions. On the flip side, when they invaded a harpy nest, I obviously added in another 8 harpy minions as they had delayed so long in getting there that more re-enforcements arrived.

On a larger scale, I like Locien's idea above, because it is a ticking bomb for them to deal with, but it won't force them to face too many encounters in a row without a rest. The last time I used this method, they were trying to save a diseased town. Every time they take an extended rest, they have to make endurance rolls against the disease.

 

[andy3k]

To answer your question, I do not think that XP is a good enough motivator for preventing extended rests (ER). In my experience, players want their daily powers more than they want a slight nudge towards leveling. Experienced players know that leveling generally does not get affected much by small XP rewards.

The official Dungeon Masters Guide 2 has suggestions for keeping up the pace and preventing the 15-minute work day. It is best to rotate between different solutions as called for by the story. Here's a few:

• Give the party one or more boons or magical items that stop working after an ER.
• Do not allow the party to recover healing surges or dailies after an ER until they meet some goal (and have an in-game explanation for it).
• Force the party into not being able to take an ER e.g. a disease that is too painful to allow sleep or, as mentioned above, constant interruptions from nature, minions, etc.
• Put a time limit on success e.g. if the ritual is not stopped by midnight then all hell breaks loose (and all future encounters go up 1 to 2 levels in difficulty beyond the norm until hell is contained).

One of my current groups raises character levels at specific points in the plot/story. The longer it takes us to complete each mission (or leg of the mission), the longer it takes to level. This keeps the party somewhat on track to completing their mission instead of getting sidetracked.

Another group I just joined tracks XP for leveling. One player keeps referring to goblins as "XP bags" and another player wanted our party of 6 to stand up against hordes of goblins (20+ at a time) "for the XP". They are relatively new to 4e and don't realize that 20 non-minion anythings will wipe the party. Half of the plot decisions the players make are based on how much XP they think they can get out of each decision. I want to adventure. They want to level. There is nothing wrong with wanting to get more powerful or kicking some goblin a$$, but if everything is about XP and getting a frost blade (stop mentioning it, dumba$$, you're 1st level) then there is no joy in RPing decisions based on character personalities, discovering the greater world that the DM has created, etc. I might have to quit my Friday group to find a group of people who are more interested in the story than the amount of XP an individual minion gives them.

Counting XP is a good way for novice DMs to judge when leveling should occur. Counting 8-10 encounters (skill and combat) is a good way for amateur DMs to judge leveling. Planning the 8-10 encounters so that they fit into the story/plot arc is the path towards mature DMing. In general, plan 7-9 encounters to fit perfectly into your story/plot and leave space for 0-3 random or optional encounters that might occur based on decision paths or unplanned party actions.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Tinkering with XP is a quick way to make your own job more difficult: if the PCs game the XP system, they'll level up faster and make combats trivial and boring unless you adjust them. Conversely if they can't be stuffed to game the XP system, then they'll level up slower and again - you have to adjust the combats.

Personally I think that if your players don't naturally push themselves, then you need to

1. Imbue a sense of urgency into dungeoneering by introducing penalties when the heroes take a breather (dungeon restocks, alert level increases, monsters simply go "this place is dangerous, let's leave", interrupted rests etc).

2. Make obvious "it's safe to rest now" points throughout adventures and structure the intervening blocks so they can be completed in a single adventuring day.

Unfortunately this puts you into a bit of a spiral, where a party who do badly against monsters will be forced to rest early and then come back to face improved foes (well, unless you just have the monsters flee).