LEB Discussion Thread '10 Pt 2

[stonegod]

Tornados have left my region sans power, so no/slow posting for now.

 

[KarinsDad]

Not quite enough, I fear. I hope to be allowed to switch out some spells that are now unthematic (and much less effective) for my mage, too. (Not all, of course, he will stay with his charm/enchantment spells.)

I don't see where this was ever really a thematic issue. The ability to do fire damage on every single power is not a normally thematic ability of any class in 4E. It's an item ability.

And the other normally non-fire spells are -1 to hit and -2 damage (Hellfire Blood / Pyromancy Apprentice). That's not really "much less effective" except if the PC runs into fire resistance NPCs. And of course, this doesn't modify fire powers at all.

The Pyromancy Apprentice class feature is what WotC added that allowed for this combination. Combining this class feature with a Flaming Weapon meant 1 extra point of damage to wizard damaging spells and no fire resistance. This includes fire resistance versus ongoing fire damage.

PS. renau1g, this class feature is the reason they errata-ed the flame weapon and not the other weapons.

To me, the problem was that WotC erratta-ed the weapon and did not errata the class feature. It's one thing to have some damaging powers with this effect, it's another to have every damaging power with this effect.

The real issue here to me is that the PC was able to add this class feature (and hence hellfires blood, the intent of which is to give the bonus conditionally, not every time) to every one of his spells, even though it's fairly obvious that this was not the intent of the class feature. Now with the weapon errata, he cannot.


Btw, my PC Sheeva also got hit with the nerf bat. She had +5 defense vs. ranged attacks, so she stayed out of close combat and never took powers or feats to increase her defenses. Suddenly with an errata, she was almost as vulnerable to ranged attacks as she was to all others (+1 to defense instead of +5, about as devastating as -1 to hit -2 damage for some powers of your nerf). I could have replaced the PC because she lost her "sniper theme", but I just shrugged and let it slide and merely replaced the magic item. There are unbalanced game elements and I think that extremely optimized PCs here at LEB will often get hit with the nerf bat because they are often designed with some of the best combos in mind. It's a hazard of designing stronger more effective PCs IMO. I personally don't think that your PC concept (power-wise or thematic-wise) was destroyed by this nerf, it's just a minor inconvenience. An inconvenience that you can either use your "one time redesign" or a gradual redesign over levels to adjust if you feel that is necessary.

I don't think we should be putting in rules to allow massive PC re-writes, every time WotC errata's something. Massive re-writes require re-reviews of the modified PCs and judges are having a hard time keeping up with the current crop of PCs, let alone more because a player is unhappy with an errata. Especially considering that there are already "modify the PC" alternatives for the player.

Most PCs here got hit with the nerf bat sooner or later. I'm not (yet) convinced that we need to do anything about that, but I'm open to suggestions.

 

[Velmont]

River have been hit with a nerf Mace of the Titan since his creation... but most of the errata was needed and made sense... just hard to give up a candy once you have tasted it.

 

[renau1g]

I'm with KD on this one. If something happens during an adventure, it's up to the DM of said adventure what to do, but there are mechanisms available so I don't think any more are needed. We have fairly generous re-build options and retraining rules.

re: Flaming weapon being changed due to Pyromancer, I don't know if I believe that. See Frost weapons triggering Lasting Frost/Wintertouched. It looks to clearly be a spellcaster's effect, a reward for a spellcaster choosing cold-based spells, but has been swiped by rangers and other TWF out there for a massive bump in damage. See Radiant Mafias out there super-abusing radiant weapons, genasi blaster-wizards using lightning weapons the same way to get around the "wrong" elements for their own Elemental Empowerment feat. It just seems odd to grab the one element being used that way.

 

[renau1g]

River have been hit with a nerf Mace of the Titan since his creation... but most of the errata was needed and made sense... just hard to give up a candy once you have tasted it.

It's funny, this is the problem I have with Paizo and their playtesting. They put in tons of "goodies" and then their core books they pull the rug from under you.

Sucks giving up stuff you have.

 

[KarinsDad]

re: Flaming weapon being changed due to Pyromancer, I don't know if I believe that. See Frost weapons triggering Lasting Frost/Wintertouched. It looks to clearly be a spellcaster's effect, a reward for a spellcaster choosing cold-based spells, but has been swiped by rangers and other TWF out there for a massive bump in damage. See Radiant Mafias out there super-abusing radiant weapons, genasi blaster-wizards using lightning weapons the same way to get around the "wrong" elements for their own Elemental Empowerment feat. It just seems odd to grab the one element being used that way.

I'm not convinced.

In the cases you mention, having the proper resistances stops the damage.

In this case pre-errata, the attack that did 15 fire and cold damage would do all 15 points of damage to every single NPC unless the NPC had fire immunity.

If the NPC has 20 fire resistance and 20 cold resistance, this combo used to still do 15 damage out of 15 damage.

In the cases you mention, if the NPC has 20 fire resistance and 20 cold resistance, and a cold/fire attack did 30 points of damage (instead of 15 because of the extra feats), it would only do 10 points of damage. The resistances still apply as long as the monster has every needed resistance.

There was no way to negate every single case of multiple types of resistance completely with a single class feature and a single magic item like this combo. When you think of the ability to sidestep an entire subset of the defensive rules of the game, that's pretty darn potent.

That's why it is overpowered and errata-ed. It completely wipes out every single NPC set of resistances as long as the power has more than just the fire keyword. All of them. The NPC needs Fire Immunity to overcome this combo.

 

[Walking Dad]

I don't see where this was ever really a thematic issue. The ability to do fire damage on every single power is not a normally thematic ability of any class in 4E. It's an item ability.

...

But it should have been or at least a more forgiving feat than Arcane Admixture. In 3.5 you could change all your elemental spell with just one feat.

My character is a fire wizard. Suddenly throwing around ice and lightning is unthematic.

I'm not convinced.

In the cases you mention, having the proper resistances stops the damage.

In this case pre-errata, the attack that did 15 fire and cold damage would do all 15 points of damage to every single NPC unless the NPC had fire immunity.

If the NPC has 20 fire resistance and 20 cold resistance, this combo used to still do 15 damage out of 15 damage.

In the cases you mention, if the NPC has 20 fire resistance and 20 cold resistance, and a cold/fire attack did 30 points of damage (instead of 15 because of the extra feats), it would only do 10 points of damage. The resistances still apply as long as the monster has every needed resistance.

There was no way to negate every single case of multiple types of resistance completely with a single class feature and a single magic item like this combo. When you think of the ability to sidestep an entire subset of the defensive rules of the game, that's pretty darn potent.

That's why it is overpowered and errata-ed. It completely wipes out every single NPC set of resistances as long as the power has more than just the fire keyword. All of them. The NPC needs Fire Immunity to overcome this combo.

You realize this is only valid for the heroic tier, right? Most enemies having (multiple) elemental resistances start at paragon tier... when Evokers ignore your sample resistances completely (Evocation Master).

The level 10 Pyromancer power is crap IMHO, as he starts to create big unfriendly damage zones.

 

[Son of Meepo]

I understand your pain Walking Dad.

My primary Living Forgotten Realms character is a level 20 tiefling pyromancer. He originally started out going for Wizard/Warlock Student of Caiphon, but when SoC got nerfed I suddenly had to change the character significantly (this was around level 14).

If it wasn't for LFR's very generous rebuild at every level up rule, then I'd still be stuck with a lot of powers and feats that don't work for my new build.

 

[KarinsDad]

He originally started out going for Wizard/Warlock Student of Caiphon, but when SoC got nerfed I suddenly had to change the character significantly (this was around level 14).

had to change??? significantly??? really???

Yes, because limiting 18 and 19 criticals to Warlock only powers is devastating to a character concept. It's no longer the same type of PC because it can no longer critical on an 18 or 19 with Wizard powers.

 

[twilsemail]

Here's a quick and hopefully easy querry:

I have two PCs. One is level 4 and the other will be level 6 when this question is relevant.

Would I be able to retire both and bring the level 4 back at a level 6? I know it's possible to retire a PC and bring them back at the same level with a massive rewrite.

*pokes querry with a stick*