Being non-judgmental about play styles

[AeroDm]

It feels like either the lines of division over style have deepened as gaming evolved or feel like we are highlighting them on the internet. When I first started, you always kind of assumed there would be a min/maxer, a rules lawyer, a role player and door kicker in any given campaign (in varying combinations). At the end of the day they were still our friends at the table looking for a fun afternoon.

I think some of it is the feedback loop of the internet but some of it is also that the division has gotten deeper. Because of the internet, an exceedingly broken combination spreads immediately and so anyone with a power-gamer tendency is entirely capable of becoming a munchkin with little to no effort. When "breaking the game" meant you sat down and worked out something awesome on your own, I was more inclined to let it play and enjoy your creativity with you. When "breaking the game" now means you went on a message board forum and copied a build that is going to let you steal the limelight from your friends, I'm a little less amused.

 

[Dedekind]

How about this: when I play with a group of new people, I don't tell them I read the Character Optimization boards because I'm concerned I'll get judged for it. Of course, I don't feel I'm a powergamer. I like reading the boards when choosing powers so I can get an idea about the pros and cons of the power. I don't always pick the "gold" and "blue" powers, but I do pay attention to what is "wrong" with the other powers.

That said, when I did mention the CharOp opinion on a power I was using, the reactions are usually either "CharOp is such a great resource" and "I just pick powers that match my idea for my character". I'm never sure if the second comment is being judgemental...

 

[OnlineDM]

OP here. Two things.

First, I specifically used "Power Gamer" because that's what the 4e Dungeon Master's Guide uses to describe this type of player. They definitely do NOT use it pejoratively, and I didn't know that some people took it that way. My apologies if I've offended anyone. Like [MENTION=3400]billd91[/MENTION], I thought that Munchkin was the pejorative term for this type of player. I didn't realize that Power Gamer was viewed the same way (and neither, evidently, did the folks who wrote the 4e DMG).

Second, I'd like to steer the thread back on topic if possible. My question is, do you have any advice for me on how to personally become more ACCEPTING of optimizers or whatever term you prefer for this type of player? The thread has kind of devolved into "I think it's okay to be an optimizer" versus "I don't like optimization"; what I'm hoping for is some advice on how I might be able to move myself into the "I think it's okay to be an optimizer" camp.

I WANT to be accepting of this type of player, but it's a struggle for me. Is the conclusion just, "Dude, you don't like optimizers. Accept it. Try to avoid playing with them if they make the game less fun for you." Is that all I can do? I'd like to do better.

 

[S'mon]

My experience with the term, pre-ENWorld, was that powergamer was not pejorative. It meant someone who pushed at the optimization margins of the rules, or at least at the high margins of power, but that wasn't necessarily bad. Munchkin was the pejorative word I always heard for someone who pushed at the margins of the rules without regard for the spirit of the game.

This is my understanding too. In a "PHB-1 only" game, the powergamer takes it as a challenge to make the most effective possible PC using only the PHB-1, using every charop trick allowed with that source. The munchkin turns up with a Shardmind Hybrid Artificer-Assassin, then whines incessantly when the DM objects. Or in the worst case I've experienced, tells me the DM that no, his PC is not dead after all, because according to the 5-page background story he had emailed me earlier, he is cursed to be killed by a red dragon - and therefore cannot be killed by anything else.

 

[S'mon]

OP here. Two things.

First, I specifically used "Power Gamer" because that's what the 4e Dungeon Master's Guide uses to describe this type of player. They definitely do NOT use it pejoratively, and I didn't know that some people took it that way. My apologies if I've offended anyone. Like [MENTION=3400]billd91[/MENTION], I thought that Munchkin was the pejorative term for this type of player. I didn't realize that Power Gamer was viewed the same way (and neither, evidently, did the folks who wrote the 4e DMG).

Second, I'd like to steer the thread back on topic if possible. My question is, do you have any advice for me on how to personally become more ACCEPTING of optimizers or whatever term you prefer for this type of player? The thread has kind of devolved into "I think it's okay to be an optimizer" versus "I don't like optimization"; what I'm hoping for is some advice on how I might be able to move myself into the "I think it's okay to be an optimizer" camp.

I WANT to be accepting of this type of player, but it's a struggle for me. Is the conclusion just, "Dude, you don't like optimizers. Accept it. Try to avoid playing with them if they make the game less fun for you." Is that all I can do? I'd like to do better.

Do you really hate all powergamers? Or just the munchkins? Where do you draw the line? Is it ok that my 3rd level Thief averages 25 damage on an attack, if I gave up 2 points of damage by using a dagger instead of shortbow just because it looks cooler & fits the mini better?

 

[S'mon]

J
"Problem gamer" is what you want. Defined as somebody who tries to make the game all about them and their character.

There are plenty of other sorts of problem gamer.

 

[AeroDm]

I WANT to be accepting of this type of player, but it's a struggle for me. Is the conclusion just, "Dude, you don't like optimizers. Accept it. Try to avoid playing with them if they make the game less fun for you." Is that all I can do? I'd like to do better.

Well, I'd say about 90% of accepting something is mentally acknowledging that you want to accept it and treat it as equal but different. I think you may be able to help yourself, though, by trying to understand why people power game. In my mind, they are just trying to be excellent in the areas that they value. Some people try to be excellent at RP, some try to be excellent at immersing themselves in the world, and some try to be excellent at immersing themselves in the rules. No one route is better than the other, they just value different things, and they are doing their best to find enjoyment through their own personal expression of fun.

 

[AeroDm]

Or in the worst case I've experienced, tells me the DM that no, his PC is not dead after all, because according to the 5-page background story he had emailed me earlier, he is cursed to be killed by a red dragon - and therefore cannot be killed by anything else.

Wait, for real? That player is the smartest person alive...

 

[Raven Crowking]

There is nothing wrong whatsoever with being judicious. You have limited time to play, and you are allowed to make value judgements. So long as you know that said judgements are subjective, there is nothing wrong with them. You do not have to see why Bob likes X to accept that he does.

Power gamer is a pejorative term for optimizer. The two have the same relationship as prima donna and roleplayer. If you only ever use the pejorative to refer to a group, you're not just judgmental, you're prejudiced.

Nonsense.

If I use pokemount to describe a paladin's mount in 3e, it hardly means that I am prejudiced either against the 3e paladin's mount or those who enjoy them.

In the first case, I have pre-judged nothing; I have made a judgement based on observation.

In the second case, I am well aware that valuation is (or largely is; that's a philosophical point) subjective.

You are prejudiced if you pre-judge individuals based upon perceived characteristics of a group, or a group based upon characteristics that you believe they have, but have not actually perceived.

Being prejudiced requires that judgement is applied without knowledge. I.e., judgement prior to knowledge, or pre-knowledge judgement.

It's just that the prejudiced set of the hobby say things like, "Steve? He's not a power gamer, he's a friend of mine!"

Or, maybe, Steve doesn't have the qualities associated with the term "power gamer" by the person making the statement?

See, I actually find this line of reasoning prejudiced. You are judging without (prior to) knowledge what is meant, and/or you are applying a characteristics of a perceived group to individuals/individual actions without (prior to) actual knowledge.

Okay, I'm judgemental about playstyles that will hamper my fun. It used to be about feeling superior to styles I found inferior, and has considerably softened to "I won't have fun with that style, and if I'm not having fun running I won't run."

That's perfectly healthy.....With the proviso that there might, in fact, be an example of that playstyle you might enjoy. Not that you need to seek it out, or accept any invitation willy-nilly because, heck, "you never know". You can make a highly edjucated guess!

Ex. I am straight. That doesn't mean that I fail to realize that, at some point in my life, I might meet someone who makes me reevaluate that statement. However, I'm not seeking such an individual out, nor am I accepting invitations just 'cause "hey, you never know".

What it does mean is that I can extend my understanding to others who are not straight without being uncomfortable about it, because I have no need to question some set-in-stone self identity to do so.

Likewise, I find 4e a poor game for what I want in a role-playing game, and I feel no need to seek out a 4e game that proves the exception. But, that doesn't mean that I need dislike anyone for liking 4e, or that I need to feel uncomfortable because someone demonstrates a skill challenge design I like. Or that I like the broad strokes of Gloomwrought. And I would still play in a Piratecat run 4e game, if given the chance, to see the legendary master in action.

Or in the worst case I've experienced, tells me the DM that no, his PC is not dead after all, because according to the 5-page background story he had emailed me earlier, he is cursed to be killed by a red dragon - and therefore cannot be killed by anything else.

"Hey! Guess what! You broke the curse!"


RC

 

[OnlineDM]

Do you really hate all powergamers? Or just the munchkins? Where do you draw the line? Is it ok that my 3rd level Thief averages 25 damage on an attack, if I gave up 2 points of damage by using a dagger instead of shortbow just because it looks cooler & fits the mini better?

I never said hate. I don't hate power gamers or any other type of gamer. But I'm judgmental toward them, feeling like "they're doing it wrong". And I don't like that feeling in myself.

As for where I draw the line, it's completely subjective, of course. If I look at a player's character and it looks like every single decision they've made it solely for maximum combat effectiveness with no regard for anything but that, yep, I'm going to look down on that player (and feel bad about myself for doing so). If they've picked a sub-optimal weapon as a sop to people who look down on power gamers, I'll still probably look down on them. If they do it to match a mini, I'll feel somewhat better, but if the PC is still otherwise totally min-maxed I'll still probably roll my eyes at the player (inwardly).

It's a spectrum. My goofball Bard with the stat array of all 13s and one 14 in his ability scores is one end (I guess I could go farther by giving him an 8 Charisma if I really wanted to test the limits of that end of the spectrum, but I don't). The ultimate CharOp board character is the other end. As you get closer to the CharOp end of the spectrum, I'm more likely to be judgmental. And that's what I'd like to change about myself