Being non-judgmental about play styles

[Vespucci]

Power gamer is a pejorative term for optimizer. The two have the same relationship as prima donna and roleplayer. If you only ever use the pejorative to refer to a group, you're not just judgmental, you're prejudiced.

There are optimizers who calmly go through the numbers, run their character for the good of the group and ask other players at the end of the session, "say, what are you thinking about getting next time you level up Ariana? Oh, OK. Well, I know you want that for concept, but you'll get more use out of this other thing - maybe the ref will let you 're-skin' it?" They're actually more common than the problem optimizers who lord their system mastery over other players. It's just that the prejudiced set of the hobby say things like, "Steve? He's not a power gamer, he's a friend of mine!"

Here's the thing, though: Steve the optimizer is a "power gamer" and a "munchkin" too. And when you use those words that way, you're no friend of his.

 

[Kerranin]

I know a number of players who are very good at optimizing characters, but they are not trying to dominate the table, just making sure they fill their role the best they can.

I think if you're trying to be part of the group, and accept that you're not going to be the centre of attention for every part of the game, then any optimization you're doing is for the right reasons - to help the group.
(I don't really optimize, but it isn't for lack of trying)

I think the only real problem we're talking about here is players who are trying to 'win'.

 

[RedTonic]

I don't like prima donnas or power-gamers. I respect roleplayers and optimizers. I try to include elements that appeal to both in my games, but I tend to understand the roleplaying mindset more.

My approach is pretty obvious when trying to reward optimizers during play. I've found as a player and a gamer a good way to engage optimizers is to present a good array of options and occasionally give them prizes in terms of available custom character abilities and phat lewt with some neat fluff (though that fluff typically satisfies the roleplayers in the group more), and give the optimizer the opportunity to be completely badass in some encounter (be it a skill-based or combat-based encounter; there are all types of optimizers, after all). Optimizers tend to like a good boss fight, IME, so I do my best to create fights that incorporate consideration of the optimized PCs' strengths (and weaknesses, or there'd be no challenge at all!). The optimal outcome for all is when the optimizers and roleplayers manage not just to not get in each others' way, but to combine their strengths to overcome encounters. I feel designing those challenges is not at all impossible.

 

[jimmifett]

I don't mind power gamers, so long as they fit in the story and aren't useless during skill challenges. I just recently started an Eberron campaign, and I told my player to create a heroic tier wish list of magic items. I let them know they wont get everything on thier lists, lucky to get a couple items from it, and definately not any time soon, but I know what would make them happy and can dole it out as plot allows. I also limit purchase of magic items to common and the occasional uncommon in a big enough city with a good streetwise check if I feel they should have it. I think this goes a long way towards controlling power gamers.

I make sure up front that they know the campaign setting to a minimal extent, and their character has to fit. I'm all about the rule of cool, so I expect them to describe their attacks and what they are doing during skill challenges (so i can award modifiers), and will allow just about any skill as a secondary with sensible justification, and it's creative enough, even allow it that time as a primary. I keep a good balance of Role vs Roll, so my players have to step forward in that regard as well.

 

[chaochou]

Power gamer is a pejorative term for optimizer.

I don't think everyone uses it that way, including me. A lot of people I know use it as a straight synonym for optimiser.

I agree that language would be a lot clearer and simpler if 'powergamer' was universally understood to mean someone whose optimisation was causing problems. It would make things much clearer to define it by its effect, rather than its cause.

In fact I'd be happy for the noun 'powergamer' to go away and die somewhere and just to use 'powergaming' to describe instances of problematic optimisation. The same way people talk about 'railroading' but rarely describe a GM as 'a railroader'.

Language ain't like that, tho, certainly in RPG-land. Agreed definitions of RPG terms are in short supply, be it powergamer, railroad, sandbox, or task resolution.

 

[Vespucci]

I don't think everyone uses it that way, including me. A lot of people I know use it as a straight synonym for optimiser.

Just think, for a moment, about all the optimizers you know. If you don't have any optimizer friends, this may be difficult. How many of them tend to self-describe as "power-gamers"? If they do use the term to self-describe, is it OK for them to say, but not for you to say?

That's the funny thing about pejoratives. Nobody ever thinks they're bad words when throwing them around. It's the getting hit that hurts.

I agree that language would be a lot clearer and simpler if 'powergamer' was universally understood to mean someone whose optimisation was causing problems. It would make things much clearer to define it by its effect, rather than its cause.

"Problem gamer" is what you want. Defined as somebody who tries to make the game all about them and their character.

 

[billd91]

I don't think everyone uses it that way, including me. A lot of people I know use it as a straight synonym for optimiser.

I agree that language would be a lot clearer and simpler if 'powergamer' was universally understood to mean someone whose optimisation was causing problems. It would make things much clearer to define it by its effect, rather than its cause.

In fact I'd be happy for the noun 'powergamer' to go away and die somewhere and just to use 'powergaming' to describe instances of problematic optimisation. The same way people talk about 'railroading' but rarely describe a GM as 'a railroader'.

Language ain't like that, tho, certainly in RPG-land. Agreed definitions of RPG terms are in short supply, be it powergamer, railroad, sandbox, or task resolution.

My experience with the term, pre-ENWorld, was that powergamer was not pejorative. It meant someone who pushed at the optimization margins of the rules, or at least at the high margins of power, but that wasn't necessarily bad. Munchkin was the pejorative word I always heard for someone who pushed at the margins of the rules without regard for the spirit of the game.

 

[Zhaleskra]

Okay, I'm judgemental about playstyles that will hamper my fun. It used to be about feeling superior to styles I found inferior, and has considerably softened to "I won't have fun with that style, and if I'm not having fun running I won't run."

To dredge up an old example, I will absolutely refuse to run for "bait and switch" players. If the entire player group tells me they agree to the terms of the proposed game, then all show up with inappropriate characters, I will refuse to run for them and in my eyes they will earn and deserve the reputation of "bad player".

Why is there some idea that only players are allowed to vote with their feet?

 

[Mournblade94]

Here's the thing, though: Steve the optimizer is a "power gamer" and a "munchkin" too. And when you use those words that way, you're no friend of his.

I have used both those terms to describe people that are very good friends. They are still friends of mine.

One of my friends actually fell for a power gamer/munchkin trap. It is in a LARP I play, and this worked really well. He is always seeking the best items to increase his power. So we made an item just for him! We made THICK WINTER SOCKS and WOOL CAP, that would grant 3 dodges (avoid ANYTHING), 3 INVULNERABILITIES (stop physical attacks), and 3 ABSORPTIONS (Stop magic attacks and suck the power into the LARP Player) every cycle (4 in a weekend event). In the scheme of things this is a very powerful item.

The catch: Once you used one ability they stayed on you until the end of the weekend, you COULD NOT take them off. (If he did it would be a cheating violation, rather serious). These were heavy winter wool socks and a wool cap. We released the item in MAY. He used the socks friday, and kept the set on while playing or sleeping, (a marshal checked) all while complaining how hot they were.

He complained how stupid it was to make a powerful item just be WINTER SOCKS and HAT, because they were so inconvenient to wear. Yet he never once took them off. He didn't cheat. But it shows his dedication to power gaming.

 

[Bedrockgames]

It feels like either the lines of division over style have deepened as gaming evolved or feel like we are highlighting them on the internet. When I first started, you always kind of assumed there would be a min/maxer, a rules lawyer, a role player and door kicker in any given campaign (in varying combinations). At the end of the day they were still our friends at the table looking for a fun afternoon.