Hide Expertise & Sentinel AC

[DracoSuave]

Until it says that, or includes Constitution in its list specifically, it doesn't negate the other benefit from applying simultaneously.

Some of you are thinking RAI, but RAW it works. The rules are VERY specific about how things do or do not stack. This is definitely a loophole and I doubt a lot of DMs would allow it, but it works as written.

The problem with your logic is that it isn't two people saying 'If you don't do this, you get this other thing' but instead its 'Replace that thing with this.'

So you go to the store, trade IN your car, and get the bonus... when you see the hippy outside, you have no car to trade him.

It's not that the bonuses can't stack, it's that they cannot co-exist because once you trade your dex/con for one, you do not have it to trade for the other.

 

[Neonchameleon]

But my reading of the rules states that sentinels allow you con mod instead of dex or int. Hide expertise allows you con mod instead of dex or int. So you can replace your dex or int bonus with con - but then no longer have it so you have nothing to drop for the hide expertise bonus.

You may only use Con instead of Dex/Int, not use Con AND use Dex/Int (if only to replace it by the +2 from Expertise)

Let's recheck your logic:

Hide Expertise:
+2 (A) to AC instead of Dex/Int (B) with Hide Armor or short: A instead of B

Sentinel:
Con (C) instead of Dex/Int (B) with light or no armor or short: C instead of B

So as a Sentinel with Hide Expertise you can choose if you want to use B (Dex/Int), A (+2) or C (Con) with Hide Armor or max(+2, Dex/Int, Con)

Wrong. Read the ability again:

Swapping Int/Dex out for Con is purely optional-- if you've built a Sentinel that dumps Con for Dex (for some reason), you can always keep using Dex instead of taking advantage of the class feature.

So, in summary:
1) Yes, a Sentinel can take Hide Expertise, which will swap in a flat +2 in place of their DEX/INT.
2) No, you can't have your CON mod and the +2 from the feat. Getting the +2 is dependent on using it instead of DEX/INT, so if you already aren't using DEX/INT, the feat has nothing to substitute for.

Out of genuine curiosity, which part of what I wrote appears to disagree with either of the above? I've clearly not communicated and would like to know how/why.

does it state you can replace a 0 dex/int mod only once, or for what purpose?

It doesn't need to. It's part of the English Language; when you replace something it's gone. You've got rid of it and replaced it with the new thing.

E.g. let's say you use Dilletante and Combat Virtuoso for Dex on a str-based dilletante power. Does that mean Hide Expertise ceases to function? Or that your dex mod is now useless for the rest of your abilities?

Wait, what? You've replaced the modifier for that specific attack. That has nothing to do with replacing your modifier for AC. Both feats rewire things.

They are different sources, one feat vs class ability, so they should stack. They are not from the same named game element. Nothing in the wording of either ability implied they need to be exclusively applied, or in what order.

Except the word "replace".

It's like having two coupons at a store that say : If you own a car, and agree not to drive it today, we will give you 5 dollars. Outside, you meet a hippy who tells you the same thing, but will smoke you up. No big deal, enjoy your buzz AND the 5 bucks, and count your lucky blessings.

No. It's like owning a car, but the store putting on a bus and the hippy offering you a lift. You can replace your means of transport for getting to the store with the bus route or the lift with the hippy. But if you're using one you can't use the other at the same time. It's not just you don't drive it; it's that you do something incompatable with the idea of driving it.

 

[Gorgoroth]

Hide Expertise

Only would appear to prevent you from using Dex or Int as modifiers for your AC while you gain the +2.

How does it prevent you from using Constitution? It explicitly doesn't.

If one reads it like a lawyer reading a contract, you'll see the fine print doesn't actually state that you cannot first substitute your dex/int mods to AC for Con and THEN trade the use of your dex/int mods to AC. All you agreed to was not to benefit from Dex or Int in order to get the +2, not Constitution. It's pretty clear.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Only would appear to prevent you from using Dex or Int as modifiers for your AC while you gain the +2.

How does it prevent you from using Constitution? It explicitly doesn't.

It does not prevent you using Dex or Int, it replaces them. Your Dex or Int modifiers to AC have gone. They are no longer there. The hippy has accepted your car keys, got in the car, and driven off down the road. You no longer have the car so you can no longer trade it in.

If one reads it like a lawyer reading a contract, you'll see the fine print doesn't actually state that you cannot first substitute your dex/int mods to AC for Con and THEN trade the use of your dex/int mods to AC.

Yes it does. You have replaced one with the other. You can no longer trade it in. You can no longer replace it because you no longer have it to replace. It isn't asleep or pining for the standard rules. If you have replaced it, it is gone. Driven off. Dead. It is an ex-modifier.

All you agreed to was not to benefit from Dex or Int in order to get the +2, not Constitution. It's pretty clear.

No. You agreed that Dex or Int no longer could count. You didn't set them to zero for this purpose. You pulled them out of your character design and re-wired it so that it didn't involve them at all, plugging something else into that socket. It's pretty clear.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Then again, if that's the case, the feat is pretty useless since any class that needs this bonus is going to have a class feature like the Sentinel's.

You'd think so, but a surprising number of primal builds are poorly designed -- Dex/Int is unimportant to them, they lack heavy armor prof, and they inexplicably lack a Con-AC feature.

Hide Expertise is a feat tax for builds that the devs fracked up AC-wise.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

The hide expertise feat needs to scale with tier. (+2/+3/+4) and suddenly it works well enough.

 

[MrMyth]

does it state you can replace a 0 dex/int mod only once, or for what purpose? What if the class ability allowed you to replace your dex mod with your wis mod for druid powers, or something else? According to your logic, that would preclude this. E.g. let's say you use Dilletante and Combat Virtuoso for Dex on a str-based dilletante power. Does that mean Hide Expertise ceases to function? Or that your dex mod is now useless for the rest of your abilities?

No, because nothing in the rules says anything like that.

Look, Hide Armor Expertise says "While wearing hide armor, you can gain a +2 bonus to AC instead of using your Dexterity or Intelligence modifier to determine your AC."

Similarly, Sentinel says, "While you are not wearing heavy armor, you can use your Constitution modifier in place of your Dexterity or Intelligence modifier to determine your AC."

The words "instead" and "in place of" is why these can't be used at the same time as each other. If you are already using something instead of something else, you cannot also swap that out for yet another option. The same reason a bard can't somehow take multiple power swap feats and claim that he is trading the same level 3 encounter power for four different powers from other classes - once he has swapped it, it is no longer available to be swapped for something else.

So, 100% RAI and RAW, this is how it works.

You suggest that if we accept this interpretation, it means other elements that draw on Dex/Int are somehow possibly limited. Except, as noted, both elements explicitly refer only to the use of Dex/Int for the purpose of determining your AC. Hence, no interaction with feats that deal with replacing stats for other purposes.

Again, look at the exact wording and things become clear - check Combat Virtuoso: "When you use any attack power gained through a multiclass feat, paragon multiclassing, or the half-elf ’s Dilettante racial feature, you can use Charisma for the power’s attack rolls rather than the ability score normally used to make the attack. You still determine damage normally."

Charisma can replace Dex for the purpose of determining the power's attack rolls. Not for any other use to which Dex is put - not initiative, not AC/Reflex, not even damage. Just for this specific power's attack rolls, and nothing else.

In fact, this sets up a good comparison. Say I choose Sonnlinor's Hammer as my Dilettante power. It's a Cleric At-Will power, wisdom based, which can be used as a melee basic attack.

Let's say I take Combat Virtuoso. I can now use Cha instead of Wis for determining the power's attack roll.

Now, say I also take Melee Training (Charisma). This also lets me use Cha instead of Wis for determining the power's attack roll.

Can I choose to use both these feats at the same time? And add Charisma to my attack roll twice instead of the normal approach of adding Wisdom once?

Of course not.

Same exact thing goes for Hide Armor Expertise and Sentinels/Wardens/etc. If you have two options, either of which can be used 'in place' of something else, you can most certainly choose to use either of those options, but you can't choose both.

 

[BobTheNob]

The hide expertise feat needs to scale with tier. (+2/+3/+4) and suddenly it works well enough.

True, but given stat growth contributes +4 to AC by level 30, I think it actually needs to scale harder.

Look, put all arguments of wording aside aside and ask yourselves this question. Do you really think that the game designers put this specific behavior of Hide expertise so that it would favor classes which substitute other stats in place of Dex/Int for AC?

Sounds pretty unlikely to me.

 

[Zaran]

I think Hide Expertise was made solely to give barbarians less need to invest in dex. It used to do exactly what the sentinel's class feature does so it was not meant to stack and that is why it is worded like it is.

 

[mneme]

Barbarians and swarm druids, really.

Give it a scaling factor with tier and it would be fine. As it is, it's actively -bad- by epic, as nobody will have a bonus of less than +1.