aurance
Explorer
It performs better as a mediocre light striker than a terrible controller.
If it's an obvious choice then it's broken
- Thread starter Kzach
- Start date
It performs better as a mediocre light striker than a terrible controller.
LoL, you're idea of "updated" and mine are quite different then. To me, "updated" means all the new info is not only added but everything is integrated, not just some stuff tacked on and a few things shoehorned in. The basics behind the handbook need a major overhaul. I will admit the CharOp board is better on that front than it used to be, but it's still pretty tunnel-visioned in it's existence. That's why I don't spend much time there because it stifles my character ideas rather than broadens them.
It's actually a decent controller, at least at low levels, it's just it's a single-target controller. The throwing build is pretty nice as it can step in to melee a bit and doesn't mind if something gets adjacent. It's wickedly accurate too. I'll admit it may feel more like a leader than a controller in some of its effects but it's meant to be a team player, not a solo character. Yeah, give it a couple of leader encounter heals and it likely "feels" much better.
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Arlough
Explorer
Two things:
- Defenders aren't supposed to do damage, so it isn't suprising that it does the least damage. This still doesn't address the question "Why has the support been so weak?"
- Multiple weapon damage is a fairly insignificant increase when compared to multi-attack (including multi-target) damage simply because between feats and items your flat damages far exceed the weapon damage. A ranger using two Whips vs. two Longswords will not be doing significantly less damage by mid-Paragon tier, except that he may get more attacks in because of reach.
This is, of course, assuming the same amount of bonuses to attack and damage are available to each. Hell, at higher levels it doesn't even matter what kind of weapon you are carrying (so long as it is the correct range and has a +3 proficiency) let alone how many of the damage dice you roll.
Of course, from my experience you can get just as good a controller (better, it seems to me) by building a controller type fighter. I mean, really with the exception of the Invoker, controllers have sucked overall at control and only became okay at control with the release of additional material.
But back to the OP's point.
D&D4e is really a tactical combat system with a skill system stuck on the side. When the game was first released, it was assumed that most groups would use maneuver warfare, focused fire, and harrying your foes so your allies could land a hit (aid another giving you a +2 attack bonus).
But the two tactics that most people have experience with are focused damage and attrition, so that is what people did, and the fights became long. Add to that the fact that the only other tactic employed was power timing, and the fights became astoundingly long because people would suffer choice paralysis. And then finally, most people moved toward strikers because they had the simplest roll to execute (nearly all power choices performed their primary roll in any situation) and gave an instant reward of being good at your roll.
So the math for the characters was reworked and "fixed" so you had a better chance to hit without aid. The monsters were then reworked so the fights were more brutal and swingy (thus more tension) but much shorter one way or the other. The character concept was reworked so even fewer tactics (with the elimination power choice and power timing) were necessary, and they started focusing feats on the two aspects of the game system that were really well defined, Attack and Damage.
"If you want the children to love you, you have to give them the candy." -Jon Stewart
People want to have tense fights where they heroicly destroy enemies, and they can only do that with the tactics they know, so that is what we have been given. Skill feats are wasted, in the classic sense, because they don't help the system achieve its goals (combat). Kinda like the way a Hummer H2 with 23" chrome rims is a waste at Jeep Safari because it won't get you any further off the road than a Stock Ford Tempo.
The solution, either limit the bonuses players can receive, accept the fact that for <90% of players, Attack is king and Damage is queen, or play a heavily skill based game. And chances are, if you are looking for a non-combat game, other systems like FATE or WOD will serve you better, anyway.
Do you have a link or book/article quote on this? I've heard this hypothesis now and again whenever the math-patch debates come up, but I don't think I've ever seen it confirmed from the design side.
chitzk0i
Explorer
The seeker was written off because it's awful. Look at some wizard encounter powers. Starting at level 3, you can throw out daze, blind, and immobilize over and over. Compared to that, Seekers get extremely mediocre powers except for a few standout options. Even a backup plan of single target control with good damage is hampered by the partially fixed dice on so many powers. If you want to bring more control to the party, virtually any other controller will do a better job of ruining enemy plans. If you want to deal damage, you can find plenty of classes that do that better.
Besides, the Seeker Handbook looks pretty complete to me.
There hasn't been any new swordmage material in a good while. What are they supposed to update it with?
Hitting more often helps every class perform their role. Everyone dealing more damage helps the encounter end quicker.
It's not explicit. But the DMG made it clear that monster attacks/defenses are supposed to scale at +1 per level. Whereas over the course of 30 levels, PC attacks/defenses get +15(level)+6(enchancement)+4(best ability scores)=+25 as scaling bonuses. In PH1 you can really only squeak another +1 attack and +2 defense from feats, and maybe another +1 or so from rather situational feats. That still leaves a +2 or +3 gap.
So either the designers just weren't aware of the basic scaling math, or they intended that something else (a combination of tactics and increased availability of buff powers, most likely) would make up for the difference.
Dice4Hire
First Post
I do not think that it is a simple as the obvious choice being broken, but there are too many excellent choices. I know with most characters my first 2-3 feats ovf every tier are no-brainers, and only later in the tier do I feel I have mroe freedom to choose feats.
I would really love to get rid of the feat tax feats as they are usually among those two to three.
I would really love to get rid of the feat tax feats as they are usually among those two to three.
@Hershel: Frankly, critiquing charop because a handbook isn't updated is missing the point. The handbooks are philanthropic -- if you think you can do better than the person maintaining one, start your own.
The idea that "every build has expertise (well, duh--though it's not true; lazy builds don't), focus, and some other damage buff, so Charop tunnels on damage" seems deeply wrong.
First, not every build has all three. Most level -30- builds have all three, of course, but that's level 30, where you have 16-17 feats to play with. And yes, all builds (that aren't lazy) have expertise, but that's a no-brainer. Unless you assume you're overlevelled and hitting on a 2 (or even a 5) without expertise, (in which case, why are you bothering with charop?), nearly every thing every character does is helped by expertise. You have attack powers, they do cool things...when they hit. So making them hit more will improve your effectiveness no matter -what- your role.
But it's trivial to find builds that pick up weapon focus at, say, level 20, when it's a +2 and soon to be a +3 to damage, which isn't awful when you're running out of feats to take.
But if you actually look at the ratings of powers -- or, for that matter, what builds are focused on, oddly enough you don't find that damage is focused on, except for strikers (and controllers, because controllers are almost always secondary strikers, and defenders who focus on punishment, because without damage they can't do their job). The focus of charop is being the best at whatever you choose to be best at.
I mean, lets look at the feats in some sample guides, picking arbitrarily (whichever way is most work, that is):
Ardent: (only looking at heroic here in the interests of my time)
Gold: Expertise (well, yes), Improved Defenses (but you can wait until paragon), Wind of Sympathy
Sky Blue: Weapon proficiency (for a polearm and reach, not damage), armor proficiency, hafted defense, superior will, deft eruption, mark of healing, martyr's surge, outraged vengence (huh; first damage thing here).
Also, all damage feats? Are black. Seems damage isn't the ardent's job.
So the charop ardent? Is focused on defense, buffing, and healing.
Artificer: focus/frostcheese is dark blue. Arcane Familiar is sky blue. I guess Githzerai Blademaster is sky blue, though, but that's a +3 damage (and more) feat at level 1.
Bards: Priorities listed: accuracy, healing/buffing/enabling, debuffing/control, initiative, defenses, power recovery, MID reduction. Huh, it's almost as if damage isn't even on the list.
Gold: Advantage of Cunning, Extended Precience, Superior Implement Training (accurate), Expertise, Battle Intutiion, Versitile Master, Imperious Mastery, Glasya's Charming Words.
Sky Blue: Bard of All Trades, Improved Magestic Word, Moonbow Dedicate, White Lotus Riposte,...
Ok, maybe leaders aren't the best example, as they don't care about damage. How about defenders?
Battlemind:
Notes: noted that they aren't good at damage and shouldn't focus on it.
Gold: Blurred Speed, Harrying Step, Strength Through Challenge, Melee Training, Expertise, Polearm Gamble, Scent of Blood, Vistani Foresight
Weapon Focus is: Sky Blue.
Fighters: Weapon Focus is sky blue (well, duh; fighters need to be able to damage stuff).
Paladins: Gold: Mighty Challenge (yes, damage, but not really, because it's divine challenge damage), Expertise, Battlewise, Improved defenses (hello, defender), Improved initiative, superior will.
Weapon Focus is: Dark Blue.
Huh. It's almost as if charop doesn't care about damage as much as Hershel thinks it does. Nah, can't be.
The idea that "every build has expertise (well, duh--though it's not true; lazy builds don't), focus, and some other damage buff, so Charop tunnels on damage" seems deeply wrong.
First, not every build has all three. Most level -30- builds have all three, of course, but that's level 30, where you have 16-17 feats to play with. And yes, all builds (that aren't lazy) have expertise, but that's a no-brainer. Unless you assume you're overlevelled and hitting on a 2 (or even a 5) without expertise, (in which case, why are you bothering with charop?), nearly every thing every character does is helped by expertise. You have attack powers, they do cool things...when they hit. So making them hit more will improve your effectiveness no matter -what- your role.
But it's trivial to find builds that pick up weapon focus at, say, level 20, when it's a +2 and soon to be a +3 to damage, which isn't awful when you're running out of feats to take.
But if you actually look at the ratings of powers -- or, for that matter, what builds are focused on, oddly enough you don't find that damage is focused on, except for strikers (and controllers, because controllers are almost always secondary strikers, and defenders who focus on punishment, because without damage they can't do their job). The focus of charop is being the best at whatever you choose to be best at.
I mean, lets look at the feats in some sample guides, picking arbitrarily (whichever way is most work, that is):
Ardent: (only looking at heroic here in the interests of my time)
Gold: Expertise (well, yes), Improved Defenses (but you can wait until paragon), Wind of Sympathy
Sky Blue: Weapon proficiency (for a polearm and reach, not damage), armor proficiency, hafted defense, superior will, deft eruption, mark of healing, martyr's surge, outraged vengence (huh; first damage thing here).
Also, all damage feats? Are black. Seems damage isn't the ardent's job.
So the charop ardent? Is focused on defense, buffing, and healing.
Artificer: focus/frostcheese is dark blue. Arcane Familiar is sky blue. I guess Githzerai Blademaster is sky blue, though, but that's a +3 damage (and more) feat at level 1.
Bards: Priorities listed: accuracy, healing/buffing/enabling, debuffing/control, initiative, defenses, power recovery, MID reduction. Huh, it's almost as if damage isn't even on the list.
Gold: Advantage of Cunning, Extended Precience, Superior Implement Training (accurate), Expertise, Battle Intutiion, Versitile Master, Imperious Mastery, Glasya's Charming Words.
Sky Blue: Bard of All Trades, Improved Magestic Word, Moonbow Dedicate, White Lotus Riposte,...
Ok, maybe leaders aren't the best example, as they don't care about damage. How about defenders?
Battlemind:
Notes: noted that they aren't good at damage and shouldn't focus on it.
Gold: Blurred Speed, Harrying Step, Strength Through Challenge, Melee Training, Expertise, Polearm Gamble, Scent of Blood, Vistani Foresight
Weapon Focus is: Sky Blue.
Fighters: Weapon Focus is sky blue (well, duh; fighters need to be able to damage stuff).
Paladins: Gold: Mighty Challenge (yes, damage, but not really, because it's divine challenge damage), Expertise, Battlewise, Improved defenses (hello, defender), Improved initiative, superior will.
Weapon Focus is: Dark Blue.
Huh. It's almost as if charop doesn't care about damage as much as Hershel thinks it does. Nah, can't be.
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The Swordmage Handbook is well put together. It acknowledges up front that you have crap for damage and that of the 3 types of Swordmages, the Shielding type is best supported. That said, since when do they play like other Defenders? Paladins, Wardens and Fighters all try and keep enemies right on top of them. Shielding Swordmages play a game of keep away by marking enemies, then heading off to try and lockdown artillery types. The bad guys can go ahead and swing at their friends, b/c they will be hitting w/soft pillows once all the damage absorption is considered. Swordmage plays unlike every other defender.
I rarely bother looking at sample builds included in the various handbooks. I spend more time looking at how individual powers, feats and gear are rated and see what works well with my planned design. There are plenty of powers in the Fighter handbook, for example, that are sky blue or gold that are probably quite nice, but have no bearing on my L12 Dwarf shield build. Doing good damage as the tank is a handy benefit, but I'm more concerned w/throwing effects on my enemies and making them less inclined to hit my friends. Or if they do, I hit, push and slow them
I rarely bother looking at sample builds included in the various handbooks. I spend more time looking at how individual powers, feats and gear are rated and see what works well with my planned design. There are plenty of powers in the Fighter handbook, for example, that are sky blue or gold that are probably quite nice, but have no bearing on my L12 Dwarf shield build. Doing good damage as the tank is a handy benefit, but I'm more concerned w/throwing effects on my enemies and making them less inclined to hit my friends. Or if they do, I hit, push and slow them
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