Nonlethal Damage

[Water Bob]

Another gamer suggested an interesting tweak to nonlethal damage: Starting at -1 hp, the character no longer takes non-lethal damage but begins to take lethal damage.

Thus, if you beat a character to 3 hp with your fists, he takes nonlethal damage. Hit him again and knock him to 0 hp, he's still only taking nonlethal damage. Hit him again with a nonlethal attack, though, and the damage becomes real damage.

I like the idea, but I think it makes it too easy to beat someone to death.

Need to find an idea somewhere in the middle, where nonlethal and lethal damage can occur from nonlethal attacks, but where neither type of attack is overemphasized.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Another gamer suggested an interesting tweak to nonlethal damage: Starting at -1 hp, the character no longer takes non-lethal damage but begins to take lethal damage.

You'd have to tweak this, since it is not possible to bring someone to -1 HP with nonlethal damage.

 

[Water Bob]

You'd have to tweak this, since it is not possible to bring someone to -1 HP with nonlethal damage.

Ah, yes, I see what you mean.

 

[Water Bob]

A simple rule would be to throw a d4 with the damage. If the d4 shows a "1", then the damage is lethal. Otherwise, it's nonlethal, as intended.

Do you think 25% of nonlethal damage being lethal is a good number? We could change the percentage by changing the die.

Has anyone seen any good rules for this anywhere?





EDIT: If the "1" on the d4 comes up, we could also do half lethal damage.

For example, Frank smacks his opponent with his fist and hits. Damage is 1d3 + STR. He does 5 points of nonlethal damage, but his d4 that he throws with his damage die shows a "1". This means damage is halved and considered lethal damage.

So, the target takes 2 points of lethal damage instead of 5 points of nonlethal damage.

 

[El Mahdi]

A simple rule would be to throw a d4 with the damage. If the d4 shows a "1", then the damage is lethal. Otherwise, it's nonlethal, as intended.

Do you think 25% of nonlethal damage being lethal is a good number? We could change the percentage by changing the die.

Has anyone seen any good rules for this anywhere?


EDIT: If the "1" on the d4 comes up, we could also do half lethal damage.

For example, Frank smacks his opponent with his fist and hits. Damage is 1d3 + STR. He does 5 points of nonlethal damage, but his d4 that he throws with his damage die shows a "1". This means damage is halved and considered lethal damage.

So, the target takes 2 points of lethal damage instead of 5 points of nonlethal damage.

Or half lethal, half non-lethal. So 2 points lethal, 3 points non-lethal (or 2 & 2).

That way you lower current hit points also, at a nearly equal amount. They take non-lethal damage and are closer to a knockout also.

 

[JamesonCourage]

If it helps, I have a rule that once your nonlethal exceeds your maximum hit points +20, all further damage is lethal. Not sure if you'd want to use it the same way I do, though, as they could wait for someone to recover, then beat them, and repeat. They can't do 8 weeks all at once with no chance of killing him, though, so that's a plus for you

 

[Water Bob]

Or half lethal, half non-lethal. So 2 points lethal, 3 points non-lethal (or 2 & 2).

That's a good idea, too. I was thinking that I didn't want to make the rule too complicated, though. Because of that, I'm leaning to the "either/or" idea where the damage will either be lethal or nonlethal.

What I'm questioning is...just how often should a nonlethal blow deliver lethal damage? Is 25% of the time a good number???

They can't do 8 weeks all at once with no chance of killing him, though, so that's a plus for you

Yeah, and I like the uncertainty of the way I'm going. I don't want my player to count on delivering nonlethal damage. They probably will knock the prisoner out, but they may beat him to death. The chance is there.

And, I like how a critical can be either lethal or nonlethal damage.

25% seems to be a good number. But, I have to think of all instances. It's not easy to beat someone to death with your fists in just a few blows, so I don't want to make fist-fighting too dangerous.

At the same time, if the players keep pounding on a downed victim, the victim should take some lethal damage--not just be unconscious for a long time.







IDEA: How about a very low probability of delivering nonlethal damage as long as the target is not helpless (not unconscious or not tied up and can defend himself), then the lethal damage chance increases depending on the victim's state.

If the target is defending himself, lethal damage is 1 in 30 (a reason to use the 30 sider! This is debatable...can be 1 in 20 or 1 in 12, whatever you think).

If the target is unaware of you or tied up, lethal damage is 1 in 4.

If the target is unconscious, lethal damage is 50% (odd damage is lethal, even damage is nonlethal).

How about something like that? Too complicated, or just right?





EDIT: I'm liking the versatile nonlethal damage set-up. I'm envisioning three categories. You've got one where nonlethal damage is very likely (need to determine %); one where nonlethal damage is likely, but there is a decent chance for lethal damage (25%); and one where lethal damage is just as likely as nonlethal damage (50%).

What you choose is based on the circumstances.

You can also change categories based on the weapon you use.

Your fists and feet as weapons normally call for the very likely method. If the target is tied up or unaware of you when you strike, also use the very likely method. But, if the target is unconscious, use the likely method--you skip down one category.

If your victim is bound but conscious. You're torturning him? Beating him? If you use a sap or a bar of lard wrapped in a cloth, these weapons are designed for nonlethal damage, so you use the likely method. But, if you pick up a sword, using the flat side of it, or a bat, skip down a category and use the 50% method, even though you take the -4 attack penlaty to deliever nonlethal damage.

Or, let's say the Crime kingpin orders his men to take you out into the yard and give you a good arse-kicking. They use only their hands and feet. Normally this would be the very likely method, but we skip down a category to the likely method because, for all practical purposes, with that many men around you, the conditions are similar to you being bound and beaten by one man. We use the likely method.

Very likely.
Likely.
Half.

Three nonlethal damage categories based on victim condition and weapon used.







2nd EDIT: If the Half category is 50%, and the Likely category is 25%, then doesn't it seem reasonable that the very likey category is 12.5%?

If so, with the Half category we use the even/odd damage thing (50%). Works well.

With the Likely category, we use the d4 (1 in 4 = 25%).

With the Very Likely category, we use the d8 (1 in 8 = 12.5%)

With each category, the chance for lethal damage doubles.

That seems like a nice rule, eh?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

What I'm questioning is...just how often should a nonlethal blow deliver lethal damage? Is 25% of the time a good number???

25% is, if you want hang a number on it, probably about right for an, "Eh, thumb-and-eyeball" approach.

You're more likely than not to get the desired outcome, but it isn't guaranteed, and d4s are ubiquitous, so why not?

Also, how does this work for weapons which explicitly do nonlethal damage, like saps or Merciful-enhanced weapons?

EDIT: The other part is too complicated.

 

[Water Bob]

Also, how does this work for weapons which explicitly do nonlethal damage, like saps or Merciful-enhanced weapons?

That's why I like the "too complicated" part.



CATEGORY 1 (12.5%)

Punches, kicks, head butts, elbow strikes, and the like fall into this category.

Adding a weapon to these types of attacks (such as brass knuckles or using a guantlet) means raising the category by one step. Use Category 2.

If you catch your target unaware of you, or if your target is bound, also use Category 2.

If your target is unconscious, use Category 3.

When rolling nonlethal damage, roll a d8 along with the damage. If a "1" shows on the category die, then the damage is considered lethal.



CATEGORY 2 (25%)

Weapons meant to inflict nonleathal damage fall into this category: the whip, sap, and the like.

If your target is unconscious, use Category 3.

When rolling nonlethal damage, roll a d4 along with the damage. If a "1" shows on the category die, then the damage is considered lethal.



CATEGORY 3 (50%)

Weapons meant to inflict lethal damage used to inflict nonlethal damage, such as a club or the flat of a sword blade, fall into this category.

When rolling nonlethal damage, consider any odd result as lethal damage while any damage totalling to an even number is counted as nonlethal damage.





EDIT: In a nutshell--

Normal unarmed attacks do CAT 1 damage.

Unarmed attacks aided by weapons (brass knuckles, gauntlet), weapons designed for nonlethal damge (sap, whip), targets unaware of the attack or bound, all do CAT 2 damage.

Weapons meant for lethal damage used to inflict nonlethal damage, or an unconscious victim, do CAT 3 damage.

 

[Water Bob]

To make this a bit more "simple", maybe we should knock it down to just two categories....



Unarmed attacks and weapons, like the whip and the sap, designed for nonlethal damage, use the d8.

Everything else uses the d4. This includes weapons designed for lethal damage used to inflict nonlethal damage and bound, unaware, or unconscious victims.



I think we're getting closer to a "good" rule?



EDIT: This should be no change to the players. Let the GM roll the d4 or the d8 and inform the players when the damage is lethal.