Rebutting a fallacy: why I await 5e (without holding my breath)

[Pentius]

What's the system for campaigns meant to feel like a Final Fantasy game from the SNES, or Dragon Quest (which has remained fairly constant in feel across five systems)?

I think any class-based, team-oriented TRPG would do a decent job of a baseline for those games(notably, any edition of D&D). For dragon quest in particular, the consistency of feel largely derives from keeping the same creator, artist and composer across the series, as well as including staple items, monsters and story elements. Most of the 'feel' of a Dragon Quest inspired campaign would come from the DM, and to a certain degree, the players. If there were a specific DQ or FF you wanted to translate, then it's a bit easier to narrow down a game, possibly by class elements. For example, FF5 or DQIX have robust job systems, where characters can switch back and forth and cherrypick abilities. this would probably be best represented by 3.x. On the other hand we have DQ8 and FF6, for example, involve characters with personal abilities that other characters cannot gain access to, which cries out for a system where you pick your class at char gen and you stick with it. AD&D and 4e are both good for that.

 

[3catcircus]

I won't speculate on the business wisdom of such an edition, but it sure would be nice to have one that combines TSR simplicity with WotC's unified d20 and 4e's focus on balance.

I don't think that a focus on "balance" would be a serious factor in getting non-4e players to buy 5e. Frankly, to an old-school player, balance is probably the wrong thing that D&D should ever focus on.

I think the version that 4e was a turn-off to so many people who played one or more of the prior editions was due to (1) the powers system and (2) the idea that everything has to be balanced.

The first time I tried playing 4e, I looked at the cookie-cutter "every class does essentially the same thing but calls it something different, and they can do it # times/encounter/day" and thought "booorrrinnnggg!" I even shook my head at the "at-will" powers - if it is at-will, why isn't it just a normal class feature like in previous editions?

It is precisely because each class, spell, etc. was different that people played the prior versions of the game and spent so much time customizing them. Besides the obvious ability to do so due to the OGL, there were far far more fan-created additions/modifications/changes to 3.x than to 4e. You could come here on ENWorld every day and there'd be a new feat, prestige class, conversion of a monster or module, or just plain new creative works. I don't see that at all with 4e - it feels like things stagnated about 1 year after 4e came out.

Another issue is that a game can be a lot of fun, regardless of which mechanics are used. For example, I'd love to see a conversion of the Twilight:2013 lifepath system and mechanics for use with D&D-type games. WotC could make a new version that uses a lifepath type of character generation system and still feel like D&D in play. Essentially - WotC needs to be smarter in regards to which sacred cows they keep or ditch. Unfortunately, with 4e, their choices weren't all that smart.

No - I think that for a 5e to be successful, WotC wil need to do two things -

1. Make a great version of D&D that feels like D&D and that is backwards compatible with 1e-3.x while raising the bar for things that have been previously neglected (like a character generation system that is more than just the numbers, and a way to modularize rules such that players can choose as much or as little complexity as they want). 4e doesn't feel like D&D.

2. Eat some crow and admit that they made a mistake with the direction they took for 4e. Relegate it to being a "spin-off" game and go back to basics.

 

[JeffB]

I think WOTC really needs to look at furthering a design "decision" they made with 4E if they want to please the most people.

Give the players the crunchy bits, while scaling back the amount of DM workload. And by this I don't just mean making it easier to whip up an encounter. The fact that pretty much all I need to run a monster is the stat block and the condition summary, is an incredible thing. I don't need to look up special abilities, spell like abilities, immunities, a spell description, a feat, etc scattered through 2 or 3 different rulebooks.

If they can bring back the player side to a more traditional D&D experience (you know, get rid of all the things1/2/3.X/PF people complain about, like the Power system, and dragonborn, and lame magic items) keep the combat system interesting , yet cut it in half, time-wise, while still moving forward in making life simple for the DM, they will have a big hit on their hands.

Of course it sounds easy typing it out on a message board, but..

 

[Pentius]

You could come here on ENWorld every day and there'd be a new feat, prestige class, conversion of a monster or module, or just plain new creative works. I don't see that at all with 4e - it feels like things stagnated about 1 year after 4e came out.

Do you not visit the 4e homebrew section? I mean, I can come to ENworld every day and there'll be a thread about "Hey I made some new stuff?" or "How should I make this new stuff?" and of course, "How do I make this old stuff work with my new stuff?"

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

I don't think that a focus on "balance" would be a serious factor in getting non-4e players to buy 5e. Frankly, to an old-school player, balance is probably the wrong thing that D&D should ever focus on.

This may or may not be true, but my comment regarding balance was merely a statement of my own preference.

In fact I can pretty much guarantee that if 5e throws balance to the wind like previous editions, I'll be totally disinterested. I like balance, and 4e has spoiled me. I'm not saying 5e has to be balanced in precisely the same way, or to the exact same degree for me to be interested, but throwing balance to the wind is a sure fire way to get me thinking "What a waste. This feels like a shoddy knock-off of some other edition." I'm sure plenty of gamers would like it, but I wouldn't.

Personally, I couldn't care less whether a D&D edition "feels like D&D." It's such a subjective and transient quality; I think that getting preoccupied with writing a new edition that "feels like D&D" is a mistake. Just write a good rpg, whether it's the kind of rpg I want or not, and it'll feel like D&D to the next generation and to plenty of veteran gamers.

 

[Gizmoduck5000]

That's a nice sentiment, Jack...and I agree with what you're saying.

Unfortunately, WotC really only seems interested in catering to number-fellating aspie basement cases who would rather sit around a table and quote reams of mechanics at eachother than actually exploring strange places and going on adventures.

Once D&D turned into an arms race, I'm afraid that it was never going back. I could be wrong and I hope that I am.

[MENTION=16077]3catcircus[/MENTION]:

Oh? You don't like the idea of balance in a GAME?

Okay...I've got a great game for you then...it's called "Rape Train". You get to be the locomotive and I get to be the caboose.

You goddamned idiot.

This is an extremely good example of the behavior that earns you a vacation from the board, as Plane Sailing so ably moderated. (No need to report this post further) -Keterys

 

[WarlockLord]

That's a nice sentiment, Jack...and I agree with what you're saying.

Unfortunately, WotC really only seems interested in catering to number-fellating aspie basement cases who would rather sit around a table and quote reams of mechanics at eachother than actually exploring strange places and going on adventures.

Once D&D turned into an arms race, I'm afraid that it was never going back. I could be wrong and I hope that I am.

[MENTION=16077]3catcircus[/MENTION]:

Oh? You don't like the idea of balance in a GAME?

Okay...I've got a great game for you then...it's called "Rape Train". You get to be the locomotive and I get to be the caboose.

You goddamned idiot.

Hey, I have an idea! Let's play a game based around numbers and math and stuff, but not actually do any math! Won't that be great?

In all seriousness, the math IS part of the game. Gary Gygax wrote that the original 3d6 ability scores fit a bell-curve distribution perfectly, but hey, clearly he's just one of those "number-fellating aspie basement cases who would rather sit around a table and quote reams of mechanics at eachother than actually exploring strange places and going on adventures."

Also, let's go on adventures and explore strange places. I'll be a wizard, and you can be my stalwart warrior counterpart. What's that? You don't like the fact that my planar bound pit fiend is more effective in combat then you are? Sorry, that's number-fellating aspie basement case talk. Get out of my game, you're not a "real roleplayer". How dare you analyze this game with math? What? There are numbers on every page of the rulebook, with mathematical operations? What is this madness? GET IT OUT OF MY ROLEPLAYING IT HURTS!

Sorry if I'm being rude but I hate that attitude.

 

[Starman]

I think the best strategy for 5e is to get rid of the stuff that people don't like and keep the stuff that people do like. I think if they did that, they'd have a sure-fire hit on their hands.

 

[Gizmoduck5000]

Hey, I have an idea! Let's play a game based around numbers and math and stuff, but not actually do any math! Won't that be great?

In all seriousness, the math IS part of the game. Gary Gygax wrote that the original 3d6 ability scores fit a bell-curve distribution perfectly, but hey, clearly he's just one of those "number-fellating aspie basement cases who would rather sit around a table and quote reams of mechanics at eachother than actually exploring strange places and going on adventures."

Also, let's go on adventures and explore strange places. I'll be a wizard, and you can be my stalwart warrior counterpart. What's that? You don't like the fact that my planar bound pit fiend is more effective in combat then you are? Sorry, that's number-fellating aspie basement case talk. Get out of my game, you're not a "real roleplayer". How dare you analyze this game with math? What? There are numbers on every page of the rulebook, with mathematical operations? What is this madness? GET IT OUT OF MY ROLEPLAYING IT HURTS!

Sorry if I'm being rude but I hate that attitude.

Riiiight. MY attitude is the reason that the hobby is in the toilet. Because, you know, making a social game into an uninviting cesspool surrounded by an exclusionary cultural wall made up entirely of esoteria that could only appeal to high functioning autistics is a sure fire way to draw in new gamers and keep the flame alive. I know...instead of playing around a table, why don't we all just lock ourselves in little rooms and masturbate over stacks of sourcebooks. What do we need people for anyway? Not when we have rules and spreadsheets.

Yeah...D&D is a game written around probabilities and statistics. That doesn't mean it has to be a book keeping nightmare written for people with personality disorders.

There was a time when D&D games were imaginative and not an unending litany of meta-language and game mechanics.

"I charge the orc, cleaving it nearly in half with my greatsword and kicking it's corpse off of the blade" is a lot more evocative than:

"I charge 6 squares, rolling a 28 with my spirited charge feat and activate the overwhelming critical power on my + 3 berserker sword, doing +4[W] damage on my daily".

My attitude isn't the one...it's ultimately inclusive, save for the mouthbreathing, math wanking pedants that I really wish would just find another game...or preferably another hobby. Maybe Fantasy Baseball. Or amateur Tax Law.

The point is, that while the game had math at it's core, it didn't used to be about the mechanics. It used to be about imagination, and context, and creativity. Now it's about trying to get the best numbers, so that your numbers can defeat the enemy numbers so that you can get better numbers to kill bigger numbers and take their numbers. And that's the result of YOUR attitude, Rainman.

Now punch yourself in the face, apologize to the board, log off and cancel your Internet Service. Your opinion expressing privileges are hereby revoked.

 

[pawsplay]

Now punch yourself in the face, apologize to the board, log off and cancel your Internet Service. Your opinion expressing privileges are hereby revoked.

Is there a possibility you forgot what board you were posting to, and posted this stuff to EN World by mistake?