Eberron inconsistencies

[Embermage]

We've gotten off on quite a tangent regarding the right/authority/power of a paladin to have random citizens arrested/questioned/smited for violations of his spider sense. There are plenty of reasons that a paladin's evildar would fail to convince authorities of a random person's guilt, as numerous other folks have already pointed out.

But that wasn't the inconsistency that was initially brought up. The problem was evil members of good-aligned churches. As folks have pointed out, clerics radiate their deity's alignment, but the vast majority of clergy in Eberron are not clerics. How do they get away with it?

I got all fired up to lay out a scenarioin which a paladin spots an evil-aligned monk or expert working within a good-aligned church, and how if he has half a brain he would inform the man's superior of his suspicions. Higher-ups would pay extra attention to the evildoer, eventually catching him in whatever perfidy made him evil. But the more I thought about it, the more that scenario makes perfect sense.

The paladin points out an evil member of the clergy to his superiors. So what? The response of a good-aligned cleric shouldn't be to cast the man out of the church for his sins, but rather to make an effort to redeem him before he reaches the moral event horizon. Informed of an evil monk amongst his flock, the abbot's response is likely to be along the lines of "yes, he is deeply burdened by his sin, but where better for him to find the light but here?" The other monks probably already know about Brother Steals-from-the-collection-plate, and watch him as a result.

I retract my earlier comments. Black sheep among the fold work fine for me.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

We've gotten off on quite a tangent regarding the right/authority/power of a paladin to have random citizens arrested/questioned/smited for violations of his spider sense. There are plenty of reasons that a paladin's evildar would fail to convince authorities of a random person's guilt, as numerous other folks have already pointed out.

But that wasn't the inconsistency that was initially brought up. The problem was evil members of good-aligned churches. As folks have pointed out, clerics radiate their deity's alignment, but the vast majority of clergy in Eberron are not clerics. How do they get away with it?

I think the aura of [alignment] applies to any divine spellcasters, such as adepts. I don't know if it's possible to be a non-spellcasting clergyman (eg a commoner, aristrocrat or what have you).

But I have to admit, that evil monk expert example is kind of cool. I have to wonder, are paladins at all common on Eberron?

 

[Starman]

The other monks probably already know about Brother Steals-from-the-collection-plate, and watch him as a result.

I retract my earlier comments. Black sheep among the fold work fine for me.

Now I want to create an order of monks named after their sins.

Brother Lies-a-Lot
Brother Eats-too-Much-Food
Brother Touches-Young-Boys
Brother Kills-People-For-No-Reason

 

[Embermage]

I think the aura of [alignment] applies to any divine spellcasters, such as adepts. I don't know if it's possible to be a non-spellcasting clergyman (eg a commoner, aristrocrat or what have you).

But I have to admit, that evil monk expert example is kind of cool. I have to wonder, are paladins at all common on Eberron?

Actually, from what I recall of Faiths of Eberron offhand, spellcasting clergy are the exception, not the standard. Lay priests are very, very common in Eberron. And the (alignment of your deity) aura is just for clerics. Paladins get an aura of good, adepts don't have one.

Paladins aren't particularly common outside the Church of the Silver Flame, but they are around.

 

[Aaron]

The paladin points out an evil member of the clergy to his superiors. So what? The response of a good-aligned cleric shouldn't be to cast the man out of the church for his sins, but rather to make an effort to redeem him before he reaches the moral event horizon. Informed of an evil monk amongst his flock, the abbot's response is likely to be along the lines of "yes, he is deeply burdened by his sin, but where better for him to find the light but here?" The other monks probably already know about Brother Steals-from-the-collection-plate, and watch him as a result.

Realistic scenario.

Not to mention that if the corruption would show to be widespread the abbots could think: "If we respond to evildoers inside our church with force on a mass scale level we'll show to our people (and the other nations outside Thrane too) that our church is massively corrupted.
Our enemies would from now on always point out that the majority of our priests are tainted by the touch of evil (even if that's not true), and we'll rapidly lose the consensus among the population.
It would be the end of our sacred mission".

Now I want to create an order of monks named after their sins.

Brother Lies-a-Lot
Brother Eats-too-Much-Food
Brother Touches-Young-Boys
Brother Kills-People-For-No-Reason

 

[jimmifett]

There have been many systems of law in our world, from American court to kangaroo court. For most societies or the centuries, court is nothing more than a spectacle arranged to demonstrate to the public why someone is obviously guilty (or they wouldn't be suspect, now would they?), so that the populace doesn't get riled up when that person is put to death or have their lands/property confiscated.

In some places, it was as simple as trial by combat: If good/honor/rightness/justice/god was on your side, how could you lose?

Trials of bravery, some dangerous to near impossible task. If you overcome it, surely the heavens are on your side.

Highly scientific testing to see if someone is equivalent to the weight of a duck to determine if they are a witch to be burned.

In such systems, a detect alignment spell is just as valid of evidence as the word of a paladin/knight to a known and respected order.

As a side note, I am glad most of the alignment nonsense is gone from 4e. Characters were getting tired of carrying lead plates around...

 

[Spatula]

Why can't I have my LG paladin of the Mockery?

I don't know that you can't, but I think it would be difficult to square a LG alignment with a deity that advocates betrayal and trickery. And even more difficult to have a LG paladin practice such a faith, since the dogma is directly opposed to the paladin's code.

 

[fireinthedust]

Paladins & Evil Clerics: This makes no sense. What I think you're failing to realize is that, unlike real-world religions, D&D isn't about evil as someone being good but overcome by temptation. In D&D evil is not just someone's sins building up, or a series of choices.

Evil is a side in a cosmic war, thus use of the term "alignment": you are aligned/allied with cosmic evil, good, whatever.

A Paladin's ability to sense evil is meant to detect creatures of evil and slay them. Paladins are evil-killing machines. To doubt a paladin, a real paladin who you can presumably test as a paladin (lay on hands, alignment spells of your own, get them to hold and use a Holy Avenger sword, etc.), isn't the same thing as doubting a polygraph. You might as well doubt a magnet for finding iron!

Eberron assumes the gods are removed from the affairs of humans, sure. That doesn't stop humans from using their resources to stamp out evil. Not just the Silver Flame, but other cleric religions as well (the LG red dragon deity, for example).

Furthermore: this ain't America, and those clerics don't have rights. No one does. This is a fantasy setting without a constitution mentioned anywhere. Moreover, the church of the silver flame isn't concerned with the "rights" of a creature to not be detected by clerical magic so it can continue to wreck havoc; they want to find and stamp out evil. That includes clerics.


That's maybe another inconsistency: why do we assume the legal system is anything like our modern one, based on rights? It's not, it's based on power and position within social hierarchy, perhaps, or rights based on money; but not inalienable rights of man, like Rousseau or other thinkers came up with.


Also: Literacy allowed democracy to take off; also for communism in the USSR and elsewhere, what with pamphlets and all that. I'm just saying that there can't be such disparity between rich and poor without some kind of social movement. People want to be heard. Now, post war, we should have the same kind of... loss of trust of old institutions that some form of major social change should want to happen.
Maybe not democracy automatically, but literacy is the way movements take off. Even in nations of the real world we see web-based freedom movements out there. Look at what happened in Egypt: lots of texting, marching, rallies, thanks to the internet. In France and America it was pamplets.

What would it be in Eberron?

If you lived there, how would you lash out at the status quo?

 

[Glade Riven]

Considering all the logical inconsistancies, utter nonsense, and stupid freakishly improbable things I run across in my average day - real life is even more inconsistant than any campaign setting I've read. We live in a world of plot holes and spelling errors.

The greatest logical fallacy in this thread is quite simple: there appears to be an unrealistic expectation that the handful of people working on a setting have doctorates in psychology, sociology, physics, geography, geology, theology, etc. With the divisions and arguments that exist in these highly specialized fields (because life is inconsistant), expecting not to run across inconsistancies in a campaign setting is a bit absurd.

On top of that, a lack of an explanation is not an inconsistancy. An inconsistancy is two conflicting explanations. At best it is an oxymoron, at worst it is a paradox. Lacking an explanation is an opportunity for a dungeon master (or even players) to insert his own ideas into the campaign.

You're creative. Make something up.

 

[Klaus]

Y'know what this thread needs? More [MENTION=15800]Hellcow[/MENTION] .

As for Evil characters: registering as Evil means nothing in the Galifar Code of Justice (which still holds true throughout Khorvaire). Until the character DOES something criminal, he's innocent. With the ammount of magic in Eberron, deceiving a Detect Evil spell or ability is a simple matter, so any paladin worth his salt uses such a >ping< as the starting point on a surveillance, not as the ultimate proof.