D&D 4E What's so bad about 4th edition? What's so good about other systems?

[AbdulAlhazred]

That is indeed where it would be discussed. However, those guidelines don't talk about the appropriateness of using minions against PCs of a given level. Sure, the level 1 wizard versus the level 30 minion is the most extreme example, but what about the level 1 wizard versus the level 5 minion? There's nothing in the guidelines to suggest that you shouldn't do that.

Ahhhh, Grasshopper DMG p57 under 'Spending Your XP Budget' under the bullet, 'level' indeed it states "Monsters or traps more than four levels below the party's level or seven levels above the party's level don't make good challenges." Which is pretty much exactly 'this is what is appropriate'. There follow a number of templates suggesting mixes of monsters of various levels followed by a note stating that you can substitute 4 minions in place of an equal level standard monster. An overall level 5 encounter would be very hard for level 1 of course.

I realize the DMG never really comes out and says "hey, minionize lower level monsters into higher level minions" but Monster creation is only loose guidelines in terms of WHAT you build or why. Making such a conversion is quite easy in general.

 

[Blackbrrd]

The reason I stopped playing 4e was mostly due to lack of time. It didn't help that the good adventures (War of the Burnigng Sky) are really really complex taking weeks to prepare to run. The simpler adventures are just pure hack and slash and sometimes I feel they could have been made by a random encounter generator. You have those that are complex and seem to be made by a random encounter generator as well.

In addition the amount of magic items, power cards, etc, etc that are available through 10-20 rulebooks are just too much. It takes away from the good base mechanics of 4e and adds a layer of complexity that just makes it a chore to make a character or run a campaign.

Part of my problem is the current toolset which isn't good enough for me when running a campaign, creating or modifying characters or monsters.

I have a strong feeling I should do as in 3.5e, I just ran with the three basic rulebooks.

 

[delericho]

Ahhhh, Grasshopper DMG p57 under 'Spending Your XP Budget' under the bullet, 'level' indeed it states "Monsters or traps more than four levels below the party's level or seven levels above the party's level don't make good challenges." Which is pretty much exactly 'this is what is appropriate'.

Yes, it discusses when monsters will be appropriate. It doesn't discuss when minions are appropriate, and in particular the use of higher-level minions with lower-level PCs.

This was an issue we faced in our most recent 4e campaign. In order to combat the dreaded grind, our DM attempted to make heavy use of minions in combat, so that we could 'mop up' quickly. Unfortunately, he quickly found this just didn't work - my Wizard's use of magic missile was such that those encounters were simply way too easy.

So I have first-hand experience of this particular piece of errata causing the very problem I'm talking about.

 

[herrozerro]

Yes, it discusses when monsters will be appropriate. It doesn't discuss when minions are appropriate, and in particular the use of higher-level minions with lower-level PCs.

This was an issue we faced in our most recent 4e campaign. In order to combat the dreaded grind, our DM attempted to make heavy use of minions in combat, so that we could 'mop up' quickly. Unfortunately, he quickly found this just didn't work - my Wizard's use of magic missile was such that those encounters were simply way too easy.

So I have first-hand experience of this particular piece of errata causing the very problem I'm talking about.

Effect damage has been a part of 4e since the beginning, flaming sphere could do the exact same thing daily as well.

the use of higher minions is covered by the XP budget, sure you can use higher level minions but you are also eating into your xp budget.

 

[delericho]

Effect damage has been a part of 4e since the beginning, flaming sphere could do the exact same thing daily as well.

Indeed. Flaming sphere can do it daily. With magic missile, I did it at will. It was that difference that really screwed up the difficulty level of several encounters.

the use of higher minions is covered by the XP budget, sure you can use higher level minions but you are also eating into your xp budget.

Yes, but encounter design simply is not just about the XP budget. If you pack an encounter with one monster role, you get the grind. A different mix reduces the grind. Use of minions reduces it further.

But the use of higher-level minions with lower-level PCs causes real problems with the difficulty level, which this change to magic missile makes worse. And the encounter design guidelines do not address the issue of doing so.

And that is all I'm saying. I'm not saying it's some huge, game-breaking issue. I'm not saying that most DMs will know this. I'm simply saying that this is not addressed in the books.

 

[herrozerro]

And that is all I'm saying. I'm not saying it's some huge, game-breaking issue. I'm not saying that most DMs will know this. I'm simply saying that this is not addressed in the books.

I odnt understand how the guidelines of encounter building is not helping you with this issue or what has to be changed. nothing has changed, if you have multiple controllers in a party minions become less effective, if you have a lot of ranged people melee monsters have a disadvantage.

All that's changed is wizards can now drom one minion a round automatically, im not seeing the issue anymore as we have removed the silly notion of a level 1 going against a level 30 minion.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yes, it discusses when monsters will be appropriate. It doesn't discuss when minions are appropriate, and in particular the use of higher-level minions with lower-level PCs.

This was an issue we faced in our most recent 4e campaign. In order to combat the dreaded grind, our DM attempted to make heavy use of minions in combat, so that we could 'mop up' quickly. Unfortunately, he quickly found this just didn't work - my Wizard's use of magic missile was such that those encounters were simply way too easy.

So I have first-hand experience of this particular piece of errata causing the very problem I'm talking about.

Minions ARE monsters. So the same level advise works for them as other monsters. I could drop 4 level 5 minions into a standard encounter and have enough points for a level 5 standard monster as well, probably some kind of leader.

Grind, in terms of encounter design, is simply best fought by following all the OTHER advice in the DMG, make terrain, lay out the geography in an interesting way, add interesting features, and then pulling from DMG2 you could add terrain powers if you have specific things you know the PCs will try. Drop a lurker and/or a trap somewhere. Have actual damaging terrain effects, or areas of advantageous magical effects, or a million other things.

The secret is there really are no 'trivial' run-of-the-mill encounters. If you want a door guard that is just swept away heck narrate it or let someone make a roll and take 5 damage if they fail or something. and mix things up a good bit so there are skill challenges to get the jump on people, etc.

 

[wlmartin]

To all the people complaining that Minions are the end of D&D.. Come on!
Minions are used by DMs as a tool to aid them in managing a small army of forces rather than large monsters that they have to keep track of effects and such.

If a DM knows his party and puts 9 High Level Minions and positions them in an area where the Wizard can throw his ever-favorite AOE spell and wipe them out... well then hes a bit of a isnt he.

Any DM that uses Minions at high levels may as well just use less and give the PCs extra XP.

Minions are designed to create filler for the fight. If you sit there and think "mmmmmm this Solo fight is just going to be a bit too easy for my guys, i'll downgrade the Solo to Elite and use the rest of the XP budget for Minions" thats more about it... not "mmmmm this Solo fight is going to be too hard, I'll just convert them into 10 high level minions, problem solver"

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yes, but encounter design simply is not just about the XP budget. If you pack an encounter with one monster role, you get the grind. A different mix reduces the grind. Use of minions reduces it further.

But the use of higher-level minions with lower-level PCs causes real problems with the difficulty level, which this change to magic missile makes worse. And the encounter design guidelines do not address the issue of doing so.

And that is all I'm saying. I'm not saying it's some huge, game-breaking issue. I'm not saying that most DMs will know this. I'm simply saying that this is not addressed in the books.

The templates ARE a form of advice on this. They show a 'wolfpack' of 5 skirmishers, but other types of encounters are mixed role, so also would have at least 2 monster types. Not EVERY substitution may make sense, 20 skirmisher minions in theory meets the wolfpack template. That's kind of an extreme though and obviously MAY not work. Remember the advice further on in the chapter, minions could use cover, have specific areas they can easily block, or be able to keep some range, etc.

Actually 20 artillery minions, ick! That will be ouchy. Generally though remember, if half the minions get an attack that actually makes them worthwhile. Even just putting a couple of pieces of blocking terrain in the encounter will usually let that happen.

 

[WarlockLord]

I really do feel sorry for the D&Ders out there who do not have an open mind enough to explore that D&D 4e is an evolution of the game of Dungeons & Dragons.

Ok, that's just condescending. How is it an evolution of what came before, exactly? It sure as hell seems like I hear more that it's an entirely new game, which, strangely enough, I'd rather not hear when I go to buy books labeled with the name of the old one.

To most of us, it is about good Roleplay and fun monster battles. After all if we just wanted to hack + slash, there is WoW, DDO, Warhammer and many other online / offline options to get involved in.

A true Roleplayer and D&D fan can take a bunch of tokens, a scribbled map and wonky game table with his friends around and make the game feel like it is actually happening. It wouldn't matter if we had to roll a D20 or a D200 - it isnt the rules we play for, its the ROLES

So why am I paying 100 bucks for 4e books if I could just make things up? I'd be really roleplaying, too. Seriously, if I'm going to talk about how I'm a REAL WOLLPWAYA I could just sit around and not use rules and just make things up. Sure, my wizard just blew up a continent, the fighter can randomly fly with his sword, and the cleric usurped his god, but that's OK cuz we're really roleplaying! We don't need any of that stupid rules stuff!

I'd also like to ask how 4e supports roleplaying (with the rules only for combat) as opposed to say, 3e (hey look, pact roleplaying penalties! Codes of conduct!) but clearly I'm not a real roleplayer.