Fixing mundane classes - a disciplined approach?

[nonsi256]

*facepalm*

You can cast grease 9 times... but if the orc army comes over and hacks you up (because grease won't kill a damn thing unless it's under very special circumstances)... then it didn't do you much good.

If you can't insta-kill, turn into something that slaughters enmasse, and deal gobs and gobs of d6s in damage... then killing becomes more difficult.

You're still potent LIKE I SAID... but you're far less efficient than say a same level fighter who can go and hack X thing to death.... with your support, buffs, control.

Currently Wizards have every piece of the pie..... but by REMOVING that single slice from their pie (the chucking of lightning bolts, firestorms, and the like)... you increase the usefulness of melee, etc etc.

Christ, this isn't complicated.

"insta-kill" = Save or Lose, not damage spells.
Mobility & Abjuration spells mean your enemies have difficulty catching up with you to retaliate.


@OP - I'd give melees some love by enhancing their mobility and action economy.

 

[Dandu]

No, Grease doesn't kill the orc in full plate who is coming at you wielding a greataxe. It sure ties him down while the rest of the party takes the now prone orc in a full plate though. Granting +4 to hit and immobilizing the enemy is a more tactically sound strategy than simply firing Magic Missile at him for a piddling amount of damage which he will ignore and still be able to carve you or your friends up by the end of it.


Tell you what, as long as my hot streak for getting challenges accepted is still on, let's throw down.

I'll build a level 20 spellcaster with no damage dealing spells. You build the best warrior you can. We'll have a match and see who comes out on top. 32 point buy, core only. How does that sound?

Rules for the Colosseum:
1. Two men enter, one man leaves. No women allowed because they are too weak and frail for combat.
2. No leaving the Colosseum during combat. No teleporting out, no plane shifting out, nada. If you are physically absent from the Colosseum, you lose the match. Exceptions: the Blink spell and Ethereal Jaunt, since you can still be seen and damaged by the right spells and weapons.
3. Opponents fight in a 50 ft radius, 100 ft tall cylindrical battle arena, using the best means at their disposal to achieve victory.
4. Victory conditions are: death, removal, long term incapacitation, mind control, or disqualification of an opponent.

 

[Water Bob]

If you were to limit yourself to "no magic/psionics" and also "no 'blade magic'" (or whatever; lol), how would you go about bringing up to speed any mundane classes that might (in your opinion) need a boost, in as few steps as possible?

This may or may not jive with what you're wanting to do, but have you considered the d20 Conan RPG?

It sounds like it might hit the nail on the head for what you are asking for.

First off, there are tons of combat maneuvers, making combat quite fun without a single spell flying through the air.

I've made the game a tad livelier using the Optional Active Defense Rule. LOOK HERE!

If you want to add in some magic later, you can. I don't have any magic in my game right now, and all the characters in the party are all Barbarians (1st level Cimmerian Barbarians). Here's some notes on my campaign: CIMMERIAN BLOOD.

Of course, you can mix classes in the traditional D&D way, but you don't have to in this game. It's not as necessary as it is in normal D&D.

There are four hardened warrior classes: Barbarian, Borderer, Soldier, and Nomad.

Three softer classes: Noble, Thief, and Pirate.

And, two civilian classes: Temptress and Scholar.

Yep, that's right. You don't see "cleric" and "mage" and the like there. That's because any class can be molded into that. A pirate steps off his ship and is worshipped by the natives can take on the role of a cleric (shaman maybe) as much as the Scholar who studies the gods or the thief who assinates the head of a cult only to take that cult leader's place.

These classes all lend themselves to easy customization through multiclassing, too. A Soldier/Borderer might be a Scout. A Thief/Borderer might be a Bounty Hunter. A Pirate/Borderer might be an explorer. A Noble/Borderer might be an emissary....just to show you some Borderer combinations.

As far as some other highlights about the game:

-- Armor absorbs damage and doesn't make a character harder to hit.

-- The game is gritty and deadly. Weapons do more damage than what you see in D&D. For example, a two-handed greatsword does 2-18 damage (1d10 + 1d8). A shortsword does 1d8. A broadsword does 1d10.

-- All shields are rated for damage as well as thier protective bonuses, in case you use them to shield bash your opponent.

-- When you defend yourself, you have a choice of blocking a blow with your shield or weapon using the Parry maneuver, or spryly ducking out of the way with a Dodge maneuver. It is viable with this combat system to wear only a loincloth and survive in combat using the Dodge and Parry for your defense.

-- Sorcerery is dark and unnatural. Evil. Virgin blood makes your spells stronger. The entire magic system has been completely changed from what you see in the standard 3.5 D&D rules.

-- Also contributing to the grit and high weapon damage is a low Massive Damage threshold. 20 points of damage from one blow makes your opponent save or be dying in the negative hit points (You just lopped off his head!).




So, if this fits what you think you want to do, then you should check it out!

 

[PureGoldx58]

*facepalm*

You can cast grease 9 times... but if the orc army comes over and hacks you up (because grease won't kill a damn thing unless it's under very special circumstances)... then it didn't do you much good.

If you can't insta-kill, turn into something that slaughters enmasse, and deal gobs and gobs of d6s in damage... then killing becomes more difficult.

You're still potent LIKE I SAID... but you're far less efficient than say a same level fighter who can go and hack X thing to death.... with your support, buffs, control.

Currently Wizards have every piece of the pie..... but by REMOVING that single slice from their pie (the chucking of lightning bolts, firestorms, and the like)... you increase the usefulness of melee, etc etc.

Christ, this isn't complicated.

If there is an orc army as a Cleric I would use Word of chaos/Dictum whatever the rest are called and just kinda win. It does no damage just keeps them from retaliating.

 

[Arkhandus]

Depends on if you're still using magical monsters and such (breath weapons, regeneration, energy drain, energy resistances, spell-like abilities, improved grab, swallow whole, damage reduction, etc.). If so (and assuming little or no magic weapons, potions, etc.)......

Penetrating Strike (Ex): All PC classes would gain this ability at 1st-level. When making only one attack on your turn, treat your targets as having 1 point less Damage Reduction per point of Base Attack Bonus that you possess; this cannot reduce effective DR to less than 0. When making multiple attacks on your turn, divide this benefit any way you choose among those attacks (choose how many points of Penetrating Strike to apply before each attack roll). Likewise, divide this benefit however you choose among all of your attacks of opportunity each round, when applicable (this is a separate allotment). Penetrating Strike applies only with masterwork weapons (and on unarmed strikes if you have Weapon Focus in them, or if you use a masterwork gauntlet for those attacks).

Combat Medicine (Ex): All PC classes would gain this ability at 1st-level. You may use the Heal skill (even untrained) to treat an injury to yourself or another living creature within your natural reach as a standard action. The DC is 10 for treating another, or 15 for treating yourself, and the DC increases by +2 if the patient is moderately injured (50-75% of HP remaining), or +4 if seriously injured (25-50% of HP remaining), or +6 if gravely injured (less than 25% of HP remaining, but no lower than a total of -9 HP). On a successful check, the patient heals 1d8 hit points or nonlethal damage (your choice which), +1 point for each point by which your check exceeds the DC. Each use of Combat Medicine expends 1 GP worth of bandages and miscellaneous medical supplies, even if unsuccessful (those materials cannot be used again). No patient can benefit from more than one successful application of Combat Medicine per level per day.

Push It (Ex): Every PC class would gain this ability at 2nd-level. Once per day, you gain a luck bonus equal to half your character level on any one saving throw, rounded down (declare this use before rolling). You may use Push It an additional once per day for every four class levels beyond 2nd-level.

Quick Solution (Ex): Every PC class would gain this ability at 3rd-level. Once per day per odd-numbered class level, you may cobble together a Quick Solution to an enemy defense or special attack form as a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity. Choose one of the following when you do so: Ability Drain (including Blood Drain), Burn, Disease, Energy Drain, Melt, Poison, Regeneration, or a single energy type (acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic). Your attacks ignore that special defense of opponents (if applicable) for 1 round per class level, or you ignore that special attack (if applicable) for 1 round per class level, or you gain Resistance to Energy equal to your class level against the chosen energy type for 1 round per class level. Quick Solution also affects any gear you wear or hold when activating it. You may only have one Quick Solution active at any given time; activating this ability again will replace the previous benefit from it. In order to use Quick Solution, you must expend 10 gold pieces per level worth of expendable reagents, generally alchemical or unusual mixtures scrounged from natural surroundings (with a sufficient value in successful Profession - Herbalist or Profession - Apothecary skill checks) or purchased from apothecaries.

Combat Prowess (Ex): Each PC class would gain this ability at 4th-level. Double your total Base Attack Bonus on one grapple check, Escape Artist check against grappling, or any other roll that would gain a size bonus from being Large or larger (even if you are not that size and even if BAB would not normally apply to the roll), once per round. Use Combat Prowess before rolling, and use it only once per day per class level.

This is just a quick answer, I haven't given it a lot of thought. But then, I would never run such a campaign anyway. D&D just isn't D&D without dragons, dungeons, magical loot, spellcasters, elves, and junk. That's just how it's always been and always will be for me.

 

[Empirate]

*facepalm*

You can cast grease 9 times... but if the orc army comes over and hacks you up (because grease won't kill a damn thing unless it's under very special circumstances)... then it didn't do you much good.

If you can't insta-kill, turn into something that slaughters enmasse, and deal gobs and gobs of d6s in damage... then killing becomes more difficult.

You're still potent LIKE I SAID... but you're far less efficient than say a same level fighter who can go and hack X thing to death.... with your support, buffs, control.

Currently Wizards have every piece of the pie..... but by REMOVING that single slice from their pie (the chucking of lightning bolts, firestorms, and the like)... you increase the usefulness of melee, etc etc.

Christ, this isn't complicated.

Since I'm DMing for a group containing, among other things, a Focused Specialist Conjurer, who doesn't know any damaging spells at all, I think I'm making an educated statement when I say you're mistaken. His Stinking Cloud, Glitterdust, Wall of Stone, Haste, Slow, Invisibility, Fly, Web, Dimension Door, etc. spells dominate. That's because they give him the ability to command when, where, and how the battle will be fought, which enemy may take part and which may not, which PC gets surprise attacks in and how many, and so on.

Also, there have been situations where he has been alone. Fly, Invisibility and Summon Monster IV took care of the opposition just fine. This PC has the Abrupt Jaunt ACF, but he rarely if ever needs to use it. That's because he can just say "no, I'm not fighting you now" or "you're fighting something else now" whenever he feels like it.

He recently got Lesser Planar Binding. His new Xill friend has proven quite the surprise for some enemies already...


Bottom line: Wizards don't need to do damage themselves, and it's often a poor use of their powers if they do. They're just fine without Fireball. And believe me when I say I had a hard time believing that myself!

BTW, I'm playing a damage-focused Evoker myself right now. It's a lot of fun, and it does work alright. But there have been times when I feel I could do better with a little more focus on battlefield control...

 

[Dandu]

Evocation has battlefield control. Howling Chain and Ice Storm come to mind.

 

[Empirate]

I'm only third level so far...

 

[Dandu]

Gust of Wind?

 

[Empirate]

I'll do that one as soon as we're facing Tiny enemies...

It's not as if Conjuration were a prohibited school or anything. I just prefer to go another route with this character, if only because the rest of the party isn't exactly experienced at D&D.