Fixing mundane classes - a disciplined approach?

[Aus_Snow]

(Naturally, this will segue into a multi-post thesis regarding ability score modifiers based on political and religious views.)

But for now...


If you were to limit yourself to "no magic/psionics" and also "no 'blade magic'" (or whatever; lol), how would you go about bringing up to speed any mundane classes that might (in your opinion) need a boost, in as few steps as possible?

With as few changes as can be, and preferably with the simplest possible changes too, how would you do it? Extra points for only using PHB, or PHB-style, mechanics. Can it even be done...

Also, extra question: Has anyone here gone the other way, and nerfed full casters? Assuming for a moment here and above that conventional wisdom is indeed wise, and spellcaster pwn anyone and everyone else.

 

[Dandu]

Turn Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Superior Expertise, Improved Bull Rush, Overrun, Disarm, Trip, Sunder, and etc combat maneuvers into something anyone can use without provoking AoOs.

6+Int skill points/level and the ability to select 10 skills as class skills.

The ability to be treated as being one size larger for feat qualifications, combat maneuvers, and etc at level 6, with an increase in virtual size whenever a new iterative attack is obtained.

The Pounce ability.

The ability to intimidate the stuffing out of multiple people with one action.

 

[kitcik]

Turn Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Superior Expertise, Improved Bull Rush, Overrun, Disarm, Trip, Sunder, and etc combat maneuvers into something anyone can use without provoking AoOs.

6+Int skill points/level and the ability to select 10 skills as class skills.

The ability to be treated as being one size larger for feat qualifications, combat maneuvers, and etc at level 6, with an increase in virtual size whenever a new iterative attack is obtained.

The Pounce ability.

The ability to intimidate the stuffing out of multiple people with one action.

Naturally, I can't XP you.

Excluding the last item, I think that's an elegant way to get them to Tier 3 (caveat: I am not 100% sure how strong the "virtual" size inreases would be - I may be missing something there). Would have to see the mechanics on the last one (like, can you base it off Str?) to see what effect that would have.

 

[Visigani]

Take away their fireballs. You're not going to be able to bring fighters and other "mundanes" up to the point of Casters because casters currently have 99579459735 different things they can do in a round and your everyday ordinary mundane has like 2.

Eliminate Casters ability to deal gobs and gobs of damage. Instead, approach the caster like you would the Wizard from those (older) Conan movies. He's a walking toolbox of knowledge and very neat tricks... but he's not zapping people with lightning bolts.

Which to be honest... seems more like Disney Wizardry than any other format. Wizards, Clerics and their ilk rarely actually produced damaging effects (strangely, it was Clerics far more often than wizards that were the ones calling down fire and brimstone) when it comes to historical spellcasters... and even often fantasy spellcasters. Sure, they exist, but OVERWHELMINGLY spellcasters were "influencers". They influenced events through illusion, divination, charms, and so forth. Rarely were they chucking fireballs.

A return to this would bring Wizards and fighters much more in line with one another. Could a wizard be powerful without these things? Certainly, and they'll still be amazing.

However, Fighters and other mundanes will be much less superfluous as their damage would be far more vital to most encounters

 

[Dandu]

Your solution is to get rid of the weakest school of magic?

 

[Visigani]

Your solution is to get rid of the weakest school of magic?

Where in my post did I say that? The desire is to remove spells that allow spellcasters to 'deal gobs and gobs of damage".

Spells that allow you to become a fire spewing colossal dragon, for example... would be right out. No more melfs acid arrow, though I may keep burning blood just for flavor. No more shadow evocation, and we'd take a dim view on shadow conjuration too... etc etc..

Dave of Enfeeblement? We'd keep.


Fact is, a lot of a spellcasters potency IS based on dealing straight out hitpoint damage.

 

[Dandu]

No it isn't.

 

[PureGoldx58]

Where in my post did I say that? The desire is to remove spells that allow spellcasters to 'deal gobs and gobs of damage".

Spells that allow you to become a fire spewing colossal dragon, for example... would be right out. No more melfs acid arrow, though I may keep burning blood just for flavor. No more shadow evocation, and we'd take a dim view on shadow conjuration too... etc etc..

Dave of Enfeeblement? We'd keep.


Fact is, a lot of a spellcasters potency IS based on dealing straight out hitpoint damage.

Sorry but you did say that. If you think the damage is why wizards, druids, clerics, Erudite, etc. are considered Tier 1 and uber then you need to read simple spells like Grease, Command, Hold Person, Dominate, Find the Path, and the list goes on for about 100+ more spells that are better than 300000000 fireballs going off at once.

I know of plenty builds where a warrior 20 can do well over 200 damage each attack.

 

[Jacob Marley]

Fact is, a lot of a spellcasters potency IS based on dealing straight out hitpoint damage.

Hmm, I think that you may be surprised at how powerful my 15th-level Conjurer is despite him only knowing one spell [Orb of Electricity] that deals damage. And even then, it is more used for its secondary, non-damaging effect.

...

@OP - One option that I like -- though I have not tried it yet -- is to use different point-buys for different character classes. For example, a Druid would be built at 18 points whereas a Fighter would be built at 32. Other classes fall in depending on their perceived power level differences. The plus side to this is that characters remain relatively closer in power through mid-levels. The downside is that it makes multi-classing more difficult. One possible solution to this would be to have the player lay out their character's progression first and then decide point-buy second depending on what the primary class is.

This option was originally mention in the Tier System thread over on Brilliant Gameologists.

Edit: I missed the no magic/psionics part of the original post. Though I do think point-buy would be a good place to start in helping balance out the less powerful classes with the more powerful classes (mundane or otherwise).

 

[Visigani]

*facepalm*

You can cast grease 9 times... but if the orc army comes over and hacks you up (because grease won't kill a damn thing unless it's under very special circumstances)... then it didn't do you much good.

If you can't insta-kill, turn into something that slaughters enmasse, and deal gobs and gobs of d6s in damage... then killing becomes more difficult.

You're still potent LIKE I SAID... but you're far less efficient than say a same level fighter who can go and hack X thing to death.... with your support, buffs, control.

Currently Wizards have every piece of the pie..... but by REMOVING that single slice from their pie (the chucking of lightning bolts, firestorms, and the like)... you increase the usefulness of melee, etc etc.

Christ, this isn't complicated.