D&D 5E The all-inclusive 4/5E DDI

[Dice4Hire]

This is an intelligent 5E discussion. Nice to see it after all the trollish ones recently.

 

[DEFCON 1]

This is an intelligent 5E discussion. Nice to see it after all the trollish ones recently.

Thank you. And it's really begun to make me think about the concepts of the 4E game architecture and what it can and can't do... both with regards to advancing the game into a "5E" arena... while also trying to bring back a 1-3E feel. After all... we've seen plenty of earlier D&D versions recreated using the SRD, why can't it be possible to do the same with 4E?

I think one of the biggest ways that 4E could become more things to more people is the idea of the different levels of complexity-- and whether it is possible to dial down the complexity to the point where you can actually remove the miniatures game aspect of it if you wanted? Can you keep the game design balanced without needing to count squares for movement and range, or by removing flanking and shifting etc. etc.? Is that possible? And are there ways to compensate PCs and monsters if those parts of their mechanics are exorcised? If you can do that... and are able to create much less complex miniature-less version of 4E that still maintains some interesting aspects of combat and keeps PC and monsters balanced... then you can bring in even more of the fans of earlier versions of the game.

It'd probably be one of the more difficult "hacks" of 4E that WotC could try... but we've heard enough stories from people here on the boards to know that miniatureless combat IS possible... and if WotC can introduce their own version to the game in its next iteration... they'd be well on their way on regenerating some goodwill I would think.

 

[Riastlin]

It costs money to support 4e, even if there's no new content. It will cost a lot of money to develop 5e. Supporting 4e while rolling out 5e will canibalise 5e sales, at least to an extent. I just do not see it happening.

Obviously none of us have access to WotC's books so we can't say for sure how much a) it costs to keep DDi up and running or b) exactly how much $ they are bringing or or c) project how much this will go up or down in the future.

That being said, while I realize it won't be free to keep the 4ed DDi material up, it also won't be on par with say the costs of keeping the servers of a dying - dead MMO up and running. This is particularly true if the online tools end up being designed well enough so that new content can be implemented with relatively little impact on older edition content. Its clear that WotC sees digital distribution as the future of the market. That being the case, it makes sense for them to try to make the online tools usable by as many people as possible for as long as possible. Turning DDi off to the 4ed only players will also cannibalize sales of 5ed as people go into a rage over the "heinous, stupid, abusive, intolerant, greedy" acts of the company. WotC knows that not everyone who plays 4ed will play 5ed, just as has happened with every edition. So, the question then comes, how can we maximize our profits? Given that the VTT clearly indicates the acceptance of out of print editions in the future (why else have a toggle for edition?) it seems clear that WotC at least acknowledges that they must examine the feasibility of supporting both editions.

Of course, nobody (probably including WotC) can say for sure if 4ed will be supported with DDi when 5ed is released. I just can't believe that WotC will not at least consider it -- especially if DDi does well in 4ed once the tools are up and running relatively well.

 

[OpsKT]

Considering the whole DDI initiative was designed to attempt to tap that monthly subscription market model that World of Warcraft found and used so well for so long, I see no reason for them to stop supporting 4e via DDI as long as people keep buying it.

 

[Jan van Leyden]

I expect the edition tag to be dropped completely. Online delivery makes it possible to change the game on a continual basis. Perhaps WotC keeps something like the Rules Compendium in print. It would change from print run to print run to reflect the current state of the rules, with changes documents keeping track of ongoing changes.

A cool solution would be to enable the user to make snapshots of the game, so one can use a fixed version for an adventure or a whole campaign.

 

[DracoSuave]

Remember one important thing. DDI was an experiment during the early days of 4e that went RIGHT. Just like Video Game publishers are moving to MMOs now because of the revenue stream, so to is WotC moving to a purely digital platform. If they can release new Corebooks that are Digital Only (DDI subscription required) they make a lot more money for a MASSIVLY lower outlay.

It costs a lot of money to publish books
It costs a lot LESS money to publish PDFs

No matter what, I do not think that D&D will exist much if at all in Solid Corebook fashion any more and if they can get everyone signed up to DDI - they can either
a) Stretch the 4e ruleset to anything they want over time, thus completely bypassing the need to release edition after edition
b) Release whatever edition they want in the future but do so purely electronicaly

Except of course, that PDFs didn't make WoTC the boatloads of money people claim they do, and that WoTC shut it down after a handful of months because Scribd was making more money off the pdfs than them OR Paizo were.

I like these broad generalizations of how PDFs will revolutionize tabletop gaming and how wizard is a fool for not trying them. It's like you exist in a world where they didn't actually try them.

Those -exact same- files are still being circulated today on torrent sites, etc. And that piracy doesn't even just impact the digital sales, they have a negative effect on physical sales as well.

Given WoTC's major profit-line happens to involve selling physical trading cards in physical stores, it's not impossible for them to want to support their physical meal ticket. Going all digital would have a negative impact on physical stores, which would have a negative impact on physical card sales, which would have a negative impact on their bottom line.

When you consider 'good business' ideas for WoTC... do remember that Magic: The Gathering exists. It's important.

 

[wlmartin]

Except of course, that PDFs didn't make WoTC the boatloads of money people claim they do, and that WoTC shut it down after a handful of months because Scribd was making more money off the pdfs than them OR Paizo were.

I like these broad generalizations of how PDFs will revolutionize tabletop gaming and how wizard is a fool for not trying them. It's like you exist in a world where they didn't actually try them.

Those -exact same- files are still being circulated today on torrent sites, etc. And that piracy doesn't even just impact the digital sales, they have a negative effect on physical sales as well.

Given WoTC's major profit-line happens to involve selling physical trading cards in physical stores, it's not impossible for them to want to support their physical meal ticket. Going all digital would have a negative impact on physical stores, which would have a negative impact on physical card sales, which would have a negative impact on their bottom line.

When you consider 'good business' ideas for WoTC... do remember that Magic: The Gathering exists. It's important.

I should have been clearer I think.
When I said PDF I was more talking about a Digital Copy of the Book, not specificaly a PDF file but something that was a Digital, Readable Page (not HTML or Text, an image of the book)

I think the future is with Online Digital Books built into DDI. ie some kind of online or download program that loads the Corebook you want and the only way to "copy" it would be to Print Screen your computer page by page and edit it. Whilst I have no doubt that some people would try that, the majority of people faced with DRM copy protection that isn't EASILY bypassed (see the new EA or Blizzard MUST-BE-ONLINE-TO-PLAY DRM) just accept that it is unpiratable / hard to pirate and move on.

Piracy goes on and the only things WotC can do to make money with this in the background is either
a) Make it all Digital and find a way to build DRM into the content viewer
b) Continue making books hoping that most people prefer a book to something online (which is nigh on impossible for them now considering all the "look at me" effort put into DDI

 

[DracoSuave]

Um... books that require that you be online in order to be used? For tabletop gaming?

Yeah, that's not a pain in the ass compared to hard copy.

And again... what about M:tG?

And moreover... by removing the exposure of the game in bookstores and, well, gaming stores... how does it attract new gamers? Wizards has done a lot of work... more work than I think you appreciate... getting a lot of stores to run weekly demonstrations of D&D. Those demonstrations market the product more effectively than any webpage ever could. By removing the physical product, you've removed the physical demonstration.

Now who's selling the product? Where's the primary marketting?

This isn't even some advanced marketting concept here... it's basic fundamental salesmanship; the easiest way to sell a product is to have someone use it and get a good experience doing so. How do you form new customers if you cut off the primary way of reaching them?

I'm absolutely convinced the pro-digital-D&D movement doesn't have solutions to these vital problems. They're thinking of existing markets... going 'It'd be nice to have the book in digital form.' And it would be nice, for a subset of existing customers. But certainly not all of those customers.

It'd result in a smaller market, and less accessibility to the game itself from new areas of the market. Neither of those things are worth the benefits.

 

[Scribble]

It'd result in a smaller market, and less accessibility to the game itself from new areas of the market. Neither of those things are worth the benefits.

Count me as someone that thinks the future of this type of game is digital.

The problem, as Steve Winter points out is we haven't fully gotten to the future yet, but we're no longer in the past either.

We're in a weird quasi-future present where neither answer is completely correct.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Which is why Essentials was on the right track in that the books were smaller and cheaper. I agree with Draco that you're going to want something in stores for people to buy, both as an advert to the game itself and as a way to keep people going back under the hopes they'll buy other WotC products at the same time... but I also agree that with the abundance of balancing, errata, and the connection of all builders to the Compendium and VTT, the digital databases and DDI subscriptions will be where they generate their most money.

So the cheaper you can put out your print material but still have it have an allure to the consumer, the better off you're probably going to be in the long run.