Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder sales

[Pentius]

No, cookies are completely unrelated. It's like me saying in an economics discussion about whether we are slipping back into a double dip recession "I have five cats!". How is that relevant?

To give another example, let's you're not feeling well and you go to the emergency room at the hospital. The doctors don't know what is wrong with you so they start collecting data (imperfect data at that). You go into cardiac arrest. Because they don't know how many cookies you have in your house, then they shouldn't try to save you?

No, the cookies thing was just plain silly.

What I'm saying though, is that, while arguably relevant, the data we have in this situation isn't enough to be useful. It would like answering the economy question with "I have a job!" and the doctor with "I feel kinda icky." Both of those may be relevant, but they don't give us enough to accurately answer the question on. And this isn't a hospital, there's no pressing need to find out which game is more popular. It's all just conjecture, and more often than not, blowing one's own horn.

 

[gamerprinter]

On that one, assertion will not be sufficient. Citation, please?

I'm going to 'pull that assertion' as I can't find the thread, not here, where it was posted.

Apologize for not being able to verify that...

GP

 

[Zil]

What I'm saying though, is that, while arguably relevant, the data we have in this situation isn't enough to be useful. It would like answering the economy question with "I have a job!" and the doctor with "I feel kinda icky." Both of those may be relevant, but they don't give us enough to accurately answer the question on. And this isn't a hospital, there's no pressing need to find out which game is more popular. It's all just conjecture, and more often than not, blowing one's own horn.

Your answers are at least related in some way to the two sample discussions. The "cookies in my house" had absolutely no relevance at all.

We can debate how much we can read into Amazon rankings or ICV2 data are and that's perfectly fair. However, to simply dismiss all the data as being completely irrelevant (which is what the cookie argument effectively did) was a bit much.

 

[Dire Bare]

I think it's reasonable to say that, given what little actual evidence we've been given, Pathfinder print products probably outsold D&D print products for one quarter. And that this trend may, or may not, continue into Q3. Paizo continues to put out a strong catalog of print releases, but WotC has picked back up again on its own release schedule (although not to previous levels, of course).

It's interesting, and likely a first, but ultimately, like others, I can only conclude, "so what?" At their best, our "data points" don't include the subscription sales for either company, and that is a major segment of each companies business model.

I think it's pretty unreasonable to conclude that total sales of Pathfinder have eclipsed total sales of D&D. I suppose it's possible, but absolutely no sufficient evidence has been provided to show this. And when crowing about your favorite system/company for a smug "I told you so", total sales are where it's at.

While some are genuinely looking at the news and saying, "Hey, that's interesting, let's talk about it (fairly)." Most of this debate is driven by the edition warrior instinct that has become so pervasive in our hobby. It's tiring, both here on ENWorld and when your local bookstore clerk decides to bring it into where you shop.

The only real facts are this: Pathfinder is a successful and awesome game. D&D 4E is also a successful and awesome game. Both companies have made mistakes in the design of their games and worlds, and both have made marketing mistakes . . . and successes in all categories also. Well, subjective "facts", but I'm good with that. I'll continue to play both as the moods of my gaming friends shift around, and continue not to care about the egos of edition warriors, as irritating as these threads can get.

 

[Dire Bare]

However, to simply dismiss all the data as being completely irrelevant (which is what the cookie argument effectively did) was a bit much.

Data does not have relevance simply because it is data.

Relevance depends on the question asked. Is the question, which company outsold the other in print products for one quarter? Then I'd argue the question itself is pretty worthless. And even if you find that question relevant, the data does not firmly support the conclusion that Paizo "won". It suggests it, but doesn't really prove anything.

A better question, IMO, would be which game is doing better overall. And the data we've been given is irrelevant to that question . . . or simply insufficient to draw any sort of rational conclusion.

 

[Mournblade94]

Data does not have relevance simply because it is data.

Relevance depends on the question asked. Is the question, which company outsold the other in print products for one quarter? Then I'd argue the question itself is pretty worthless. And even if you find that question relevant, the data does not firmly support the conclusion that Paizo "won". It suggests it, but doesn't really prove anything.

A better question, IMO, would be which game is doing better overall. And the data we've been given is irrelevant to that question . . . or simply insufficient to draw any sort of rational conclusion.

There does not have to be sufficeint data for a bookstore clerk to leave a sign that Pathfinder is outselling D&D. He just placed it there because maybe he wants to focus on those sales.

Read the recent article about ATARI losing its license to produce D&D videogames. In it WOTC claims DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS: DAGGERDALE as a #1 Selling XBOX LIVE seller. That was pattently wrong, the Gameinformer site has pretty good data, and Daggerdale did not hit the #1 slot. WOTC still put it there.

I would have issue with a plain old fan putting a fake sign up to 'steer' others away. I have no problem with a book store employee setting one up for better sales.

 

[Dannager]

Read the recent article about ATARI losing its license to produce D&D videogames. In it WOTC claims DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS: DAGGERDALE as a #1 Selling XBOX LIVE seller. That was pattently wrong, the Gameinformer site has pretty good data, and Daggerdale did not hit the #1 slot. WOTC still put it there.

Are you sure that wasn't a reference to the fact that Daggerdale might have hit the #1 seller spot at some point following its release? Similar to how a New York Times Bestseller gets to call itself that long after it falls off the Bestseller list?

 

[prosfilaes]

Relevance depends on the question asked. Is the question, which company outsold the other in print products for one quarter?

We have data for multiple quarters. And that's actually a pretty important question for the store owner that started this discussion.

And even if you find that question relevant, the data does not firmly support the conclusion that Paizo "won". It suggests it, but doesn't really prove anything.

Every piece of data we have points in one direction. Unless you're seriously asserting that D&D is outselling Pathfinder in some environment besides the hobby stories or Amazon, by enough of a factor to offset Paizo direct sales, we have solid evidence on this. The level of evidence you're demanding is simply unrealistic.

Did Harry Truman really win versus Dewey? At least there we have one piece of data that claims otherwise.

A better question, IMO, would be which game is doing better overall.

That's a bad question, actually, because it fails to specify anything in a meaningful way. Measuring the number of people who have the core book(s) available was one way to measure how well a game is doing; today D&D 4 wouldn't rank, as Pathfinder, OSRIC, GURPS Lite, etc., are all available to a billion people or so. You want copies personally at hand (a moot distinction in many cases), OSRIC might still rank high. (So might older versions of D&D.) Counting the number of active players would almost certainly put D&D 3.5 back in the top 5--how you counted D&D Encounters and the Pathfinder Society might make a huge difference here.

Another measurement in this area is the number of new pages (or words) released for each system--include 3rd parties or not as you will. That's a sign of how well the system is doing sales wise, but also one definition of which system is doing better (releasing more material).

I don't see how much money each Paizo is racking in on Pathfinder versus WotC on D&D to be that interesting a measurement of which game is doing better. It has no direct effect on me finding fellow players, or more material to play with.

 

[Mournblade94]

Are you sure that wasn't a reference to the fact that Daggerdale might have hit the #1 seller spot at some point following its release? Similar to how a New York Times Bestseller gets to call itself that long after it falls off the Bestseller list?

Its possible I imagine.

 

[amethal]

The strangest thing is D&D winning in Q1, 2011... because almost no D&D RPG products were released in that quarter. Was anything released for Pathfinder?

Cheers!

Yes.

Pathfinder releases one adventure path installment per month. There is one Pathfinder Campaign Setting product, one Pathfinder Companion product and one Pathfinder Module every 2 months or so. There are also 3 Pathfinder RPG hardbacks per year.

I buy their Gamemastery maps and cards, but I don't know if these are categorised as role-playing products.