How much backlash is too much?

[Michael Silverbane]

Thanks, Havrik. I didn't really know how to express what I didn't like about the evil group, but now I do.

Now you should express that to your players, and get on to a game that everyone can enjoy.

 

[Saeviomagy]

while a paladin can channel power through his hands, most folk, townsfolk included, would expect him to draw steel rather than grapple with someone he expected to smite. The fact that he was using his hands counts against the murderous mage. Sorry, your excuse for him does not wash. Everyone knows that paladins use swords for killin' folks. 'He was a paladin, I had to kill him' is not going to sway a jury.

This sounds sort of like saying that a gunfighter was obviously not going to kill someone because he was screaming angrily and waving a sword at them, instead of his more traditional gun.

 

[S'mon]

I agree with Havrik, and herein lies my discomfort with the whole evil thing i think. Any action I take against the PCs seems like me against them and not just consequences for their actions. The town constable is 4 levels higher than the swordsage and has several deputies. He could easily incarcerate the swordsage, but I know it would end in a bloodbath leaving the PC dead.

Thanks, Havrik. I didn't really know how to express what I didn't like about the evil group, but now I do.

Wow, I like GMing for evil PCs, but the whole point is that I can cut loose, impose logical consequences, and not worry about keeping PCs alive (not that I do that much in regular games). Normally players of evil PCs know that once you wreak havoc in place A, you need to hightail it out for place B. Without consequences there's no challenge.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

This sounds sort of like saying that a gunfighter was obviously not going to kill someone because he was screaming angrily and waving a sword at them, instead of his more traditional gun.

More like a gunfighter is screaming angrily, and waving his fist, you know, the things on the end of your arms, typically come in pairs? 'Cause guess what? A gunfighter has fists too.

If the gunfighter drew steel, and there is a reason I have been using that instead of 'sword', because while a gunslinger ain't likely to have a sword he will have a knife, then he has pulled a lethal weapon.

Or do you honestly think that a paladin isn't going to pull a sword if he intends to smite? If so, why? 'Cause that assumption is just plain dumb.

I am assuming that neither the paladin, nor the local law, is that stupid.

So the PC is a murderer.

So, hang him.

Bury his body in a lime pit.

Burn some of his pieces so that he cannot be raised.

The Auld Grump

 

[MoxieFu]

You can avoid the messy entanglements of a trial by resorting to a tried and true tool used in so many movies (mostly westerns) from cheezy B-movies to the classics.

This is the point in the story where some idealistic, young turk decides that somebody, and in this case it will just have to be himself, HAS do do something. While the townsfolk may recoil in fear from the PC's, he has to just get up in their faces about it. He will dog them at every step, accuse them of the true heinous nature of their deeds, and will eventually MAKE the PC's kill him.

With his death the PC's have more blood on their hands and this time it's one of the town's own. Even if the PC's have been crossing the palms of the townsfolk this is where they feel dirty about having taken their blood money.

The PC's have no choice but to ride out of town to avoid pitchforks and an assembled posse of characters out to pursue them to the ends of the the Oerth. The PC's are now NPC's and the posse are made up of the new characters the players have just rolled up to right the wrongs of the fleeing villains!

A new chapter begins!

 

[Saeviomagy]

More like a gunfighter is screaming angrily, and waving his fist, you know, the things on the end of your arms, typically come in pairs? 'Cause guess what? A gunfighter has fists too.

If the gunfighter drew steel, and there is a reason I have been using that instead of 'sword', because while a gunslinger ain't likely to have a sword he will have a knife, then he has pulled a lethal weapon.

Or do you honestly think that a paladin isn't going to pull a sword if he intends to smite? If so, why? 'Cause that assumption is just plain dumb.

I am assuming that neither the paladin, nor the local law, is that stupid.

Your tone is pretty insulting. Knock it off.

Paladins are wielders of divine power. In most editions they have been divine spellcasters, relatively hard to distinguish from a cleric for those who don't walk around seeing people's level and class branded on their foreheads.

Clerics are those guys who walk around dropping flamestrikes and blade barriers on people with no more than their bare hands.

In fact in the most recent edition, a first level paladin could be dropping "on pain of death" (does a fair amount of damage from 5 squares away, certainly enough to kill, castable with bare hands, causes more damage to the target if they fight back) or "radiant delirium" (damages, dazes and inflicts a penalty to AC, 5 square range, no weapon or implement needed).

 

[Nightson]

Put him on trial.

Allow trial by combat.

The champion for law is one of the brothers of the paladin he killed, play up the paladin seeking justice angle, I'd make it a tough fight CR wise.

Let the dice fall where they will.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Your tone is pretty insulting. Knock it off.

Paladins are wielders of divine power. In most editions they have been divine spellcasters, relatively hard to distinguish from a cleric for those who don't walk around seeing people's level and class branded on their foreheads.

Clerics are those guys who walk around dropping flamestrikes and blade barriers on people with no more than their bare hands.

In fact in the most recent edition, a first level paladin could be dropping "on pain of death" (does a fair amount of damage from 5 squares away, certainly enough to kill, castable with bare hands, causes more damage to the target if they fight back) or "radiant delirium" (damages, dazes and inflicts a penalty to AC, 5 square range, no weapon or implement needed).

Piffle.

Again, do you honestly think that a paladin, getting ready to smite someone, is going to smite with his fists?

If you think that I am being insulting by pointing out that, no, really, he would use his sword, because if he is going to smite then there is no reason not to, then you are being silly. I think that the excuse you are trying to make is a poor one, so I am mocking it, and I think that the excuse deserves it.

Why, in the hells, would he not use a sword? He was threatening, yes. Bullying, certainly.Yelling at someone who had endangered lives, caused numerous deaths, property damage, and, hey! comes up evil on Paladin-o-vision.

The paladin was grabbing him by the shoulders - it was a mark of frustration, and anger, yes. Smiting? Horse manure. Think pissed off, but honest, local sheriff, not Dirty Harry.

You are making an excuse for him, and rather a lame one at that. I do not for one minute think that you would accept such an excuse if you did not, as DM and for whatever reason, want to allow it, regardless of the truth of the matter.

I, for one, would not buy that sorry excuse for a murderer for a dollar.

If you want to make rather lame excuses, fine - if it is your game then you can see fit to have it go how you want. But do not expect me to agree with you. It is not going to happen.

If you wanted to make a jailbreak adventure out of it, then fine - do it fast, before the execution, but don't expect to hang around town afterwards.

Yes, I would have the murderer, and yes, he is a murderer, hanged by the neck until he is dead. I have less of a problem with trying to bust him out than in trying to pretend that the paladin somehow deserved it.

If the players were okay with a jailbreak being the last adventure in the campaign, then I would likely allow the attempt, but if they decided to go on a town wide killing spree? Who was that masked man that killed the evil adventurers? The World may never know. But he left these silver bullets....

In my settings, executed convicts really are buried in lime pits, at least from the 16th C. on - it was actually fairly standard procedure in the real world. Sometimes in a cardboard coffin, sometimes naught but a shroud.

As an aside, it strikes me that the creation of a traditional Hand of Glory would prevent a low level raising of the dead in D&D/Pathfinder. I can see the likes of Jack Ketch selling the hands of the hanged man in a world where magic works.

'Now mount who list,
And close by the wrist
Sever me quickly the Dead Man's fist!—
Now climb who dare
Where he swings in air,
And pluck me five locks of the Dead Man's hair!'

The Auld Grump

 

[PapersAndPaychecks]

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That much backslash is too much.

...I'll get my coat.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

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That much backslash is too much.

...I'll get my coat.

I knew that sooner or later slash fiction would make it's way to E N World.

The Auld Grump