D&D 1E Too much XP (1e D&D)

[kitcik]

The game does not encourage build planning and in fact I've never seen it suggested in any of the core books.

There are PrCs in the core books.

PrCs have entry requirements.

Therefore, if you want a particular PrC, you must build-plan.

If that's not suggestive, I don't know what is...

 

[Crothian]

There are PrCs in the core books.

PrCs have entry requirements.

Therefore, if you want a particular PrC, you must build-plan.

If that's not suggestion, I don't know what is...

Well, they are optional. They are also in the DMG a book the players shouldn't really be looking through. And The Bard in 1e worked in a similar fashion but it was of course in a player book. It is also not a build suggestion because the requirements can just as easily be altered because we are talking about each group altering the rules to fit their own gaming table needs.

But on second thought edition arguing doesn't really serve any purpose especially since at your table these all could be problems while at mine they never are.

 

[kitcik]

Sorry, but after the friendly exchange above, that last bit seemed a little over the top.

Well, they are optional.

OK, so it is optionally suggested you should build-plan? Also, non-core, which is still 3E, they seem pretty much a part of the standard game.

They are also in the DMG a book the players shouldn't really be looking through.

So your argument is that it does not suggest build-planning because player character (prestige) classes happen to be in the DMG? Seems kinda like a weak argument. Also, see above again re: non-core.​

It is also not a build suggestion because the requirements can just as easily be altered because we are talking about each group altering the rules to fit their own gaming table needs.

So now your argument is that it does not suggest build-planning because, whatever your build is, your DM will waive the rule and allow you to take whatever PrC you want w/o meeting the requirements? Or just randomly tell you - "hey, I think you could go to XXX PrC, you are close enough." Is that REALLY how you think it was designed?

But on second thought edition arguing doesn't really serve any purpose especially since at your table these all could be problems while at mine they never are.

Honestly, I really agreed with 95% of everything you have said in this thread, but it seems like instead of just saying, "Yeah, I guess 3E does suggest build planning" you are simply copping out.

 

[Crothian]

Honestly, I really agreed with 95% of everything you have said in this thread, but it seems like instead of just saying, "Yeah, I guess 3E does suggest build planning" you are simply copping out.

Because I don't think it does. At least not for the decade of campaigns I ran. Maybe the way other people did it became a required part of the game. And as is evidenced by many threads about character building there is a group of players that love to do this. But at my table characters always grew organically. At 6th level the Barbarian took Toughness because he felt the character had shown toughness the previous level. It is not the optimal thing to do, but that's not the way we play.

But maybe back in 2000 when you read the PHB the first thought to you was to pick out all the character choices from levels 1-20 and plan everything out ahead of time. Different people read a book, they get different things out of it. Goodness knows I never got anything out Ayn Rand's Fountainhead like my Literature teacher did.

 

[airwalkrr]

With all due respect to Crothian, although you are usually very well-reasoned in your responses, you are way off-base if you think 3e doesn't encourage build planning. A good 50% or so of feats have some sort of prerequisite, which means there has to be build planning to a certain degree even if you aren't using prestige classes. The only comparable thing in AD&D is the minimum ability score prerequisites for certain races and classes. And that was only a consideration at character creation.

I would add to this that 3e, with its many options and possibilities is most definitely a system that rewards build planning. Its a smorgasbord for character optimizers. If you just sit down with a 1st level character the choices you make will limit your character's future options in a significant way for the rest of your character's life. If that doesn't encourage build planning, I don't know what does.

 

[Crothian]

With all due respect to Crothian, although you are usually very well-reasoned in your responses, you are way off-base if you think 3e doesn't encourage build planning. A good 50% or so of feats have some sort of prerequisite, which means there has to be build planning to a certain degree even if you aren't using prestige classes.

See, I don't consider having to take Power Attack to get to Cleave build planning. But I see your point

The only comparable thing in AD&D is the minimum ability score prerequisites for certain races and classes. And that was only a consideration at character creation.

Actually, I would say a better example is the need to build and tame an area to get followers once a character reaches name level. One needs to plan their building.....

okay, bad joke.

 

[jasper]

There are PrCs in the core books.

PrCs have entry requirements.

Therefore, if you want a particular PrC, you must build-plan.

If that's not suggestive, I don't know what is...

wasn't the 1E bard a build plan then?
And as to the comment 1e was a bunch tables yall have fun and make the game up as you go. Sorry. Not for a lot of us. We were trying to follow the rules but the rules overwrote themselves a lot.
Or as my wife says after reading of 1e books and watch us game. Gynax need a editior or two.

 

[billd91]

Because I don't think it does. At least not for the decade of campaigns I ran. Maybe the way other people did it became a required part of the game. And as is evidenced by many threads about character building there is a group of players that love to do this. But at my table characters always grew organically. At 6th level the Barbarian took Toughness because he felt the character had shown toughness the previous level. It is not the optimal thing to do, but that's not the way we play.

But maybe back in 2000 when you read the PHB the first thought to you was to pick out all the character choices from levels 1-20 and plan everything out ahead of time. Different people read a book, they get different things out of it. Goodness knows I never got anything out Ayn Rand's Fountainhead like my Literature teacher did.

This is what I come away with from the 3x line of games. The game doesn't encourage anything with respect to build planning or making build choices spontaneously or some degree in between the extremes. What it does is present options. If you're inspired by something that you can't choose spontaneously, you've got plenty of power and freedom to plan your build. On the other hand, there are plenty of other choices you can make to grow your character in other ways.

I really think reading in encouragement of build planning (or not) is more a feature of the mindset brought by the player than a feature of the rules themselves.

 

[kitcik]

The rules of chess never actually spell out that you should think about your next move(s), and you can certainly play chess without doing so, but to say the rules don't suggest it (even though it is unwritten) would be a tad silly.

 

[Crothian]

The rules of chess never actually spell out that you should think about your next move(s), and you can certainly play chess without doing so, but to say the rules don't suggest it (even though it is unwritten) would be a tad silly.

So would comparing D&D with Chess.