I don't get the dislike of healing surges

[Bedrockgames]

Disease, condition - whatever - its a mechanic. Want more realism? Don't call it a disease; just call it a consequence of getting hit by a big sword and have the save happen all the time (or if damage above a certain amount is taken, or whatever - set the condition to what you like).

Personaly, I don't like it to be the default condition as I don't usually like things that grim and gritty - doesn't mean it's not easy to do.

Or you could get rid of the healing surge since that is what is causing issues for people.

 

[Mort]

Or you could get rid of the healing surge since that is what is causing issues for people.

You could, but what do you use in its place? For me combining the two mechanics (healing surges and the disease track) does a decent job. It also allows for fun things like the cure disease ritual, which is actually dangerous and the player takes a risk for having it cast (the cure may well be worse than the disease).

 

[Crispy Critter]

Am I nuts to think that all healing surges are is a way for the players and DM to not have to worry about the long-term consequences of damage and healing? I mean it seems pretty clear to me that's why they are in the game. Folks screwing themselves into the ground over what they mean for the narrative and the abstraction of HPs I think are talking past what the purpose is for healing surges. The designers did not want players to rely on other players for healing and they did not want the consequences of long term damage getting in the way of the next day's encounter. I don't know why people feel like they have to dress this up as anything other than that. Trying to show how it gets in the way of the narrative or how it can be narrated is meaningless because it's pretty clear to me the designers goals with this mechanic had nothing to do with narration and everything to do with expediency. Characters get damaged in the encounter, get them healed up with as little fuss as possible and get on to the next encounter.

 

[Desdichado]

This doesn't address my problem with PCs getting up every day with wounds they can always completely brush off without external healing. That bugs me, because you're losing a lot of potential narrative paths by that always happening.

As I've expressed before, I've probably had 8-10 different instances of long recovery significantly shaping the story over the past year. The party waits while someone is healed, or waits for a healer to arrive, or goes looking for a missing and injured party member, etc., and while this happens, NPCs progress with their plans, nations send forces to fight the demons that the players should (wasting resources), a fortress falls (or tightens security too much to handle), etc.

I feel these narratives paths are lost, where they were open before. Mind you, quick healing isn't the biggest culprit here (I'd peg long range teleportation), but it's a large contributing factor, and thus my complaint. It's cool if it's not a problem for other people, but it is for me. As always, though, play what you like

Well, you also seem to be operating under the impression that D&D is a system that's generic enough to emulate various different genres, and therefore facilitate a number of narrative paths, to use your terminology, that in fact D&D is not designed to do. D&D isn't generic, it emulates a specific type of fantasy. Arguably, different editions of D&D are better at emulating different sub-genres and their related "narrative paths" than others. But healing surges are an important part of genre emulation that is key to the whole design principle of 4e. To me, it seems that complaining about healing surges here is a bit of a red herring; healing surges are simply one symptom of a greater issue--you want to play a different kind of fantasy than (4e) D&D fantasy. Naturally, it's making you feel artificially constrained and hampered in your efforts. In all fairness, though, that should be expected.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Disease, condition - whatever - its a mechanic. Want more realism? Don't call it a disease; just call it a consequence of getting hit by a big sword and have the save happen all the time (or if damage above a certain amount is taken, or whatever - set the condition to what you like).

Personaly, I don't like it to be the default condition as I don't usually like things that grim and gritty - doesn't mean it's not easy to do.

It's still adding a mechanic for correcting something that shouldn't need to be corrected. I'm basically with Bedrockgames on this one. For me, one HS is cool, but the numbers 4Ed PCs have is too many.

You could, but what do you use in its place?

Actual magic from exterior sources- devices or casters- not one's own inner powers unless that is part of the essence of the class or race, like a shapeshifter, monk, paladins or certain kinds of psionic types.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

D&D isn't generic, it emulates a specific type of fantasy.

But for the fantasy versions of games like HERO, GURPS, and M&M (W&W), D&D is arguably the most generic major FRPG out there.

 

[Nagol]

Am I nuts to think that all healing surges are is a way for the players and DM to not have to worry about the long-term consequences of damage and healing? I mean it seems pretty clear to me that's why they are in the game. Folks screwing themselves into the ground over what they mean for the narrative and the abstraction of HPs I think are talking past what the purpose is for healing surges. The designers did not want players to rely on other players for healing and they did not want the consequences of long term damage getting in the way of the next day's encounter. I don't know why people feel like they have to dress this up as anything other than that. Trying to show how it gets in the way of the narrative or how it can be narrated is meaningless because it's pretty clear to me the designers goals with this mechanic had nothing to do with narration and everything to do with expediency. Characters get damaged in the encounter, get them healed up with as little fuss as possible and get on to the next encounter.

That's pretty much the point. That expediency comes at a cost. Some people don't like that cost. No one in the thread has expressed that HS aren't doing what the designers wanted... they are saying the effect of HS on the game is something they don't appreciate for their preferred style. I don't recall anyone objecting to HS because they weren't effective in game terms.

 

[Mort]

It's still adding a mechanic for correcting something that shouldn't need to be corrected. I'm basically with Bedrockgames on this one. For me, one HS is cool, but the numbers 4Ed PCs have is too many.

I think I agree that some classes get way too many healing surges - and for many campaigns its hard to impart a feeling of danger under these circumstances. That's not really a problem with the mechanic though, that's a bloat problem (same as for example you can easily cut HP of monsters in 4e by 1/3 or even 1/2 (and ramp up the damage they do) if you want a less grindy quicker play experience).

Actual magic from exterior sources- devices or casters- not one's own inner powers unless that is part of the essence of the class or race, like a shapeshifter, monk, paladins or certain kinds of psionic types.

Then we are right back to dependance on magic for healing at any meaningful speed? no thanks (YMMV)!

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Then we are right back to dependance on magic for healing at any meaningful speed? no thanks (YMMV)!

Yeah, I know.

Just like I feel that barely surviving a near lethal encounter with a guy using a 2Hd sword should require a bit more magic than a nice night's rest, I realize that not everyone agrees.

Which is why (in another current thread) I said that 5Ed will likely make permanent the rift caused by the introduction of 4Ed.

 

[Hussar]

/snip

As I've expressed before, I've probably had 8-10 different instances of long recovery significantly shaping the story over the past year. The party waits while someone is healed, or waits for a healer to arrive, or goes looking for a missing and injured party member, etc., and while this happens, NPCs progress with their plans, nations send forces to fight the demons that the players should (wasting resources), a fortress falls (or tightens security too much to handle), etc.

I feel these narratives paths are lost, where they were open before. Mind you, quick healing isn't the biggest culprit here (I'd peg long range teleportation), but it's a large contributing factor, and thus my complaint. It's cool if it's not a problem for other people, but it is for me. As always, though, play what you like

JC, if you don't mind, could you please post these 8-10 examples in the Narrative Challenge thread to actually provide concrete examples of what you are talking about? At least then I could possibly start to see how this is a large narrative space instead of the narrative puddle it looks like since everyone insists on speaking in broad generalities without any actual examples.