Dungeons & Discourse: Atheism (and related)

[Aberzanzorax]

To counter it, what are some heroic "atheist" characters you guys can think of? What kinds of heroes deny and defy the gods?

Well, in 10,000 BC (the movie, and spoiler alert):

There is a person claiming to be a god who no one will stand up against except, of course, the fated hero. Watching the movie the first time, a lot of it seems to be simply an action movie. Watching it a second time (or more carefully than I did the first time), one notices a LOT of subtle magic, and in fact, the person claiming to be a god might in fact have been one (or a demon lord or somesuch).



HERE's a question: What about druids? They worship nature oftentimes, rather than even nature gods. Might they be atheists?

 

[I'm A Banana]

HERE's a question: What about druids? They worship nature oftentimes, rather than even nature gods. Might they be atheists?

Quite possibly! That there are primal spirits is as clear as the fact that there are creatures who call themselves gods, but it might be like a Buddhist, Jainist, Confusion, or Taoist atheism: there's supernatural creatures and supernatural powers, but calling them "gods" is unnecessary or just that they're not "higher" spiritual creatures (and thus not entitled to worship). What's important is how you live your life -- and how you relate to the natural world.

Then there's this distinction between the gods as mortals know them, and whatever "power" the gods wield...which may be above the gods themselves!

It's interesting that in D&D, the "creator deities" are pretty much literal truth, which means that there's evidence for powerful creators who perform "miracles," but these miracles and acts of creation are rationally understood -- there's no need for belief, in the fundamental sense. So I think when we talk about D&D-brand atheism, it's more about practice and idealism: these things should not be worshiped, or that these things are harmful in some way. There's other ways to perform miracles equal to or greater than divine power, without the need to be some god's willing slave. And the gods themselves are flawed, petty, and jealous, so it's clear to think that you might do a better job. There's also something they're all tapping into (divine power!) that clearly isn't being worshiped itself, something beyond them that they all share, that might be pure enough to be transcendent.

You might also say that EVERYONE in D&D is an "atheist." They lack a belief, because a belief is unnecessary. Gods are tools to be used just as anything else is, like powerful wizards who have determined how to share their power, and set up laws that one may follow to get it. It's not about belief, it's about worship, or practice, or behavior. Even the clerics don't "believe," they just "know."

In a setting with more "distant gods", I imagine an atheism being stronger -- one where divine magic works fine, but there's no active personalities involved in it. Rejecting the focus of the worship is easier -- you can believe it's metaphors and systemic self-deception just as easily as anyone here on reg'lar Earth can. A setting like Eberron probably has more than a few folks who are functional atheists, and more than a few folks who reject that the Silver Flame or the Sovereign Host have any real power (it comes simply from your devotion!).

In fact:

• Greyhawk: Gods are mellifluous and active, but might not be worthy of belief or adherence. They're another source of power, just as books and your sword-arm are.
• Forgotten Realms: Gods are very active and multitudinous, making up the physical structure of the world, but clearly have been about as destructive as they are creative. They are personalities, however, and you can feel free to dislike any of them, and you might do a better job, and you can rise to godhood yourself!
• Eberron: Gods are distant and unapproachable, mostly silent and irrelevant to daily life. There is divine power, but its source and nature are not well understood, since many who worship many different concepts receive it. It's entirely possible to go through life rejecting the stories and myths of the gods as only stories, rather than literal history.
• Dark Sun: God what now? There are not gods, and there is no divine power. Once Upon A Time, there may have been, but everyone's an Atheist now. The only things calling themselves gods are a few Sorcerer-Kings, which might be able to force worship, but clearly aren't transcendent about it.

 

[Umbran]

However, I'd be surprised to find someone who believed in Thor, Osiris, or Zeus.

Unfortunately, in the United States, some of the gods of Pre-Christian Europe are now the divinities of choice of certain brands of white supremacy/aryan movements.

I understand it makes analogizing difficult, but please don't go into real-world religion, folks.

 

[saskganesh]

HERE's a question: What about druids? They worship nature oftentimes, rather than even nature gods. Might they be atheists?

They are pantheists. Of course, they could also worship personifications of nature, which are interpreted by outsiders and lower level druidic initiates as "gods", but the Druidic "secret" is that these deities are just symbols of the divinity found throughout nature and also the divinity within man. Maybe it's a too subtle theological point, but I think one could have fun with that.

To the OP: in my game, I have a pluralistic, multicultural, atheistic culture that is led by a race of powerful magic-using merchants. These elites know that the gods "exist" but don't worship them, as they think it's just a divine protection racket. However, about a century ago there was a "secret magic war" between their realm and another empire, which led to the destruction of their home island; the difference maker was the opposition's command of divine magic. In response the surviving atheist/refugees have been developing stronger elemental magics and a splinter group has decided that the best way forward is to harness death itself and so have become necromantic lords.

Interestingly, the Atheists are known for having cities full of temples as they see religion as a useful source of steady tax revenue.

 

[Celebrim]

HERE's a question: What about druids? They worship nature oftentimes, rather than even nature gods. Might they be atheists?

Really good question.

I don't have druids per se in my campaign, but I do have shamans that serve very much the same role. The divide between the shamans and the clerics is very much reflective of the divide between the orthodox view of the gods as a higher order of being deserving of pious fealty and humble acceptance, and the view that gods are just another sort of sentient being towards which one may have a more complex relationship and which deserves no special consideration. Shamanism is widely persecuted in many areas because of the often legitimate fear that it is associated with diabolism (summoning and making pacts with fiends), but there are areas where clerics are persecuted for fear that they will bring the gods, and with them subserviance, civilization, and/or cultural change.

I would imagine stock druids, where they are not simply specialty priests of some diety (as is sometimes assumed), would have much the same rivilry with priests. At some level, one is tempted to see this rivilry in purely cynical terms; both sides are fighting for adherents who will turn to them for guidance, leadership, and blessings and whose gratitude they can then draw from.

Heretical groups which oppose the gods often rely on Shamanism for divine power and healing, as there is almost always some lesser spirit out there who has a grudge against a greater one and would happily pull down the gods as well. Unfortunately these are often rogue servitors, fiends, spirits of strife and discord and other quite unsavory spirits, which tends to mean the heretics are usually (but not always!) a pretty nasty bunch who earn their evil reputation.

Note also that this is one area in which my campaign differs slightly from default Gygaxian assumptions, as there is almost no such thing as 'demon worship' per se. While fiend lords of various sorts exist in some form, there is pretty much nothing like sincere servents and worshippers of them. Anyone associating with such things is generally acting out pure cynacism, and heretics might hate all orders of spirits but simply find the lesser sorts easier to bully. The evil gods and their cults tend to serve in the roles Gygax would normally assign to demons, devils, and so forth.

Likewise, I don't have a bifurcated cosmology with monotheistic inspired mythology on one hand running parallel to a polytheistic mythology. It's all polytheistic and animistic. The words angel or demon are not generally used as nouns, but when used at all are descriptors meaning basically good and evil. Those things generally called fiends are simply evil spirits which are, on the sliding scale of godhood, weaker than the ones commonly accepted as gods. I generally have no need of use demons save when I repurpose the stats as a spirit of some vice or as the messenger of some evil deity, and there is no assumption of a native heirarchy controlling the outerplanes somewhat independently of the gods. The same is basically true of the celestials, who show up occasionally but again repurposed as a spirit of something nice or as a messenger or servant of a greater power. (The slaad are an exception, but the reason for this exception is a campaign level secret.) Because the gods are numerous and active, and the PC's assumed to be important, you are just about as likely to ever meet a god in my campaign as anything resembling D&D's normal 'demons as monsters'. On the other hands, generic spirits of stones, trees, fields, streams, diseases, etc. are common as insects. Literally every tree is presumed to have a dryad or something of the sort associated with it, and there is a stone spirit in literally every rock, and a building spirit associated with every building. Shamans therefore do not want for things to bargain with and/or command.

 

[Tymophil]

Here's what I do in my present campaign. There ARE religions, and there ARE believers... Anyone can see that. And SOME people claim that there are gods or other kinds of supernatural agents.

Religions come in two breeds : natural forces that can be called to act for the faithful, and anthropomorphic ones that can answer payers of the faithful.

I designed a loose, even simplistic, "ancient cult" for the natural forces believers.

I designed a Pantheon for the anthropomorphic gods, with very few dieties. Each one is linked to a natural force : Sun god, Moon goddess, Sea god, etc.

Believers come in any shape of form. I stressed the point that, in most religions, sects spread like wild fire. The Sun god being the most revered, he can be worshipped as the Ardent Sun, the Cropper, the Righteous Father, the Morning Giver, etc. I made some gods persona non grata in certain places... by believers at least.

In my group, I have a firm believer in the Sun god (an avenger). He's an almost intolerant one that was indoctrinated by a Sect. His initiation rite did go awfully wrong, and his skin is scarred with burnt skin, he lost all hair, and his eyes lost their colour. Still, he believes in his god and his clergy. All that was chosen by the player... He really understood the mood of my campaign.

One is mercenary, with down to earth beliefs. “Gods ? Maybe, but powers, sure... Let's try to get as univolved as possible. I may need that power, whatever its source.” I portray him an agnostic.

Two characters worship the ancient cult of Natural Forces beyond our comprehension (a shaman and a warder). They get power from those sources, the kind of power they have make it plain. They don't believe that there are anthropomorphic gods. It is very interesting to play as those cults are considered obsolete, yet dangerous, in certain areas.

The rogue never talks such matters... He's too busy surviving. We've played almost 15 sessions so far, and got often into heavy roleplay around religions. Yet he never said a word that could lead anyone to know what is his take on those matters. I consider it a fine way to play such a character !

The wizard is a kind of agent provocateur that makes a point at mocking religious people, whatever their religion. He always comes up with a “this is all arcane magic in disguise” kind of explanation.

I made it so, that this could be a good explanation, until... The wizard did something very nice rewarded with... “You will get an answer once by a deity.” The player got silent on the topic for a few sessions... But when the answer came, he was surprised (and disappointed) that the answer was not what he expected. Yet it was the most useful at the time.

I also made sure that the religions had evolved over time. So much, that the older versions of them could be heretic to the believers of today.
For example, the players went to a very ancient place that was holy centuries ago, only to find that the Sun god and the Moon goddess were worshipped in the same temple. The Moon goddess doesn't have any temple in resent days, and it is important to this religion. While the Sun god clergy forbids any sign of worship of the Moon goddess were it is powerful enough.

In my view, religions, gods, and most importantly believers are the opportunity to give depth and sense of mystery to a setting. If there is enough depth, there should be room enough for the atheist point of view to thrive...

 

[LurkAway]

A secret memo from an unnamed bishop was intercepted and rumours say it describes a group of heretics.

Apparently, these Atheists of the Alpha claim that an Alpha Soul was born out of nothing and grew and unfolded and transmuted to become the universe itself. Parts of the Alpha Soul self-cannibalized to make themselves stronger and styled themselves gods.

Moreso, these Alpha offshoots prematurely formed their identities before the Alpha Expansion was complete, have not evolved past their primordial origins, and may not even be truly sentient. For example, a "god" risen from a proto-ocean will be forever obsessed with water, another "god" formed in a bubble of hyper-conflict will forever be addicted to warfare, etc. They are falsely credited for the creation of the universe. Those who pray to a sea god or ask for a war god for a boon may merely be calling to archaic senseless entities.

Druids are, in effect, worshipping the final incarnation of the Alpha (at least in this plane of existence), although no worship is truly required to access the primal source.

These Atheists insist that this origin story is not a matter or belief or faith, but that they have actual proof or evidence.

According to the memo, if such atheists are located, they should be considered extremely dangerous, killed on sight, and any blasphemous teachings burned immediately.

 

[jonesy]

Why would religious people in a D&D setting consider atheists heretics, or blasphemous, or anything like that? D&D worlds are full of people who believe in actual continuously manifesting dieties in direct competition to their own. Wouldn't atheist be the least of their concern? Wouldn't atheist be practically mundane by comparison?

 

[Celebrim]

Why would religious people in a D&D setting consider atheists heretics, or blasphemous, or anything like that?

That's a good question.

The 'atheists' would answer that obviously, it is because they are an actual threat to the gods. The heretical position is that for all the factionalism of the gods, it's basically a 'one party system' and the real danger to the gods isn't the other faction (which ultimately differs with them only on minor points like whether to be 'good' or 'evil') which wants to maintain the status quo, but the one that wants to overthrow the status quo.

Another cynical position, which might be typical of say the sovereign rulers of the various nation states, basically notes that things typically don't go that well for mortals in absence of divine blessing, to say nothing of divine wrath, and the wise ruler does well to make sure that there is nothing go on which will particularly cheese off one or more dieties. The old sage in the tower can quitely dabble in Gantroism or Monoism all he likes - especially if he's also a high level wizard; but, if you have someone professing to follow the teachings of Keltern and who is encouraging debauching and murdering the virgins that serve the harvest goddess on her own alter, that's something you want to do something about before things get out of hand.

The slightly less cynical position is that the gods have been more or less at truce since the end of the God's War, and as such are no longer directly making war on each others institutions. One of the many problems with heretics is that if they got to be too successful, they might break the truce and humanity might well not survive the resulting battle. Or, perhaps even worse, heretics are always looking for ways to actually bring down the gods, which invariably leads to interest in art magic, which in turn risks a second Iconoclasm with the united forces of both evil and good Gods lashing out in retribution.

The some what more Orthodox position is simply that the gods are 'good' or at least useful (even the evil ones, depending on your point of view) and so heretical teachings are bad for people. Without trust in divine ordinances, for example, the souls of mortals become lost on their way to the afterlife and are more likely to become vengeful ghosts. Without trust in the divine, who are you going to turn to drive out that disease spirit, and without driving out disease spirits aren't you just going to end up with a plague?

Or you might just simply note that even though heretics aren't the only things a given god might dislike, the other sorts of things that gods dislike tend to be liked by other opposing gods, and so heretics - by virtue of not having much in the way of champions - just make easier targets.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Why would religious people in a D&D setting consider atheists heretics, or blasphemous, or anything like that? D&D worlds are full of people who believe in actual continuously manifesting dieties in direct competition to their own. Wouldn't atheist be the least of their concern? Wouldn't atheist be practically mundane by comparison?

If worship provides the gods with power, the idea of NOT providing the gods with power is pretty heretical. If all the people of the world buy into "atheism", the gods die. Which means no divine power anymore (at least as far as clerics and the like are concerned), or at least that Pelor isn't around to save your hide anymore if you screw up.

Even if the gods thrive independently of their cults, it is in the deity's best interests to achieve as much political power in the world as possible. A god without temples might have great power, but they couldn't really show it off to anyone, and they couldn't affect events in the mortal realm very easily. A church is an extended arm, and those not joining up risk working against the arm.

If you use the 4e Nentir Vale history, you have good and evil gods working together for a common goal against the primordials -- who are still around, though quiescent. A cleric in such a setting may fear that without the gods, nothing would stop the rampaging elemental forces from re-emerging and overwhelming the world.

If the setting has more distant gods, "atheism" can still disrupt the church structure, which historically for humans has been a key organizing force in society. Remember that the early Christians were called Atheists in the Roman Empire, because they didn't adhere to Roman civil religion. Simply not adhering to the basic practices that are ingrained in everyday life can be a dire threat to a community's power structure (which often will include religious figures). Who are you going to build monuments to if there is no divinity worthy of such devotion?

So say you're a local priest of Pelor who oversees the harvest of turnips from your farm, since Pelor is the deity of agriculture and farming. You credit Pelor with bringing forth life from the ground, and so think that's pretty dang worthy of obedience and ritual practice. Then, this group comes to town acting like they know better than you, telling you Pelor's got nothing to do with growing crops, that a few towns over, this evil druid has great expansive gardens ripe with all sorts of fruits, simply because of their knowledge of plants. They challenge your position, your god, and your society. They claim that they have a "better way," but what's wrong with what has worked fine since your great-great grandfather's time? Why do we need a better way? Shouldn't they just pack it up, go home, or at least go away? Who asked them to help? So what if sometimes a harsh drought withers the crops? So what if that druid is well-fed? So what if orcs are on the march in the north and threatening to come down next autumn and lay seige to the town, requiring everyone to get as much food as possible? They are harbingers of change and disaster and fear. They tell you you are a slave. What is wrong with slavery, you think. It has worked well so far.