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No More 15-Minute Adventuring Day: Campsites

I disagree. First, a GM does not do this to punish the characters. He does it help build verisimilitude into the world. As a result, with the world always moving, the characters have to think and consider their consequences for choosing to rest after every encounter.

In some cases, resting fits in with the current events and there is not a consequence of any significance for choosing to rest. Kingmaker is a good example of this (and possibly one of its cons). During the exploration phase the characters are going to rest after nearly every encounter. Sure there will be the occasional wandering monster (which comes from a terrain appropriate table and fits with the environ), but not every time. So here is a case where the rest doesn't really have a major consequence for the characters.

Other times rest will have consequences. It doesn't have to be increasing monster numbers, though it might mean some areas get emptied or reduced and other numbers added to as reinforcements are moved around. It does mean the critters are going to be much more alert and at attentions. It will likely mean smarter tactics by the enemy as they are aware and have now had time to organize. More traps and ambushes and sorts. So don't think of it as adding more monsters or even a lot of wandering monsters (though it might be a patrol actively looking for the resting party), think of it as a chance to have more interesting tactics.
Wandering monsters add verisimilitude in the wilderness, and in enemy bases--and basically nowhere else. The only other place they fit is ecosystem-style megadungeons, which themselves lack verisimilitude.

In older editions, wandering monsters actually killed the verisimilitude in some adventures, popping up in stately manor houses, sealed tombs, and so forth.


Likely because that would mean removing core elements like spells and certain special abilities.

I think late 3e and 4e demonstrate that spells work well as at-will or per-encounter abilites. Similarly, it's not to hard to rework other per-day character abilities so that they have a different means of refreshing.

The only thing that doesn't really work apart from a longer recharge time is healing. A wizard getting his spells back by studying his spellbook for a few minutes makes sense. A wizard getting his hp back by lying down for a bit doesn't.
 

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In older editions, wandering monsters actually killed the verisimilitude in some adventures, popping up in stately manor houses, sealed tombs, and so forth.

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It is possible that this happened. Wandering monsters were supposed to be included thoughtfully. Putting a green slime in a manor is not thoughtful. Considering the guards ARE monsters in such a setting. They may just be men but for the purposes of PC who would likely fight them they are monsters.
Wandering monsters mean that creatures would not be sitting stationary while PC's explored. They were also used to keep things moving. Players who took too long encountered more wandering monsters.

It was a tool.
 

arscott said:
Wandering monsters add verisimilitude in the wilderness, and in enemy bases--and basically nowhere else.

Correct. Which in the Kingmaker example above is exactly where the characters are when exploring - in the wilderness. And as you said, enemy bases are apt to have wandering patrols.

Keep in mind, I did not say use a wandering monster every time the characters stop to rest. I said use them often enough to have the characters think their actions through instead of defaulting to "it is safe to rest here". The world moves and reacts regardless of what the characters do. Sometimes this means nothing happens when they rest, but other times this means they get caught in camp and have their rest disrupted. Constantly interrupting their rest is as verisimilitude breaking as letting them rest in peace all the time.

arscott said:
In older editions, wandering monsters actually killed the verisimilitude in some adventures, popping up in stately manor houses, sealed tombs, and so forth.

Yep. Not playing an earlier edition with such wandering monster tables. When I do have wandering monster tables they are more tailored for the current environ.

arscott said:
I think late 3e and 4e demonstrate that spells work well as at-will or per-encounter abilites. Similarly, it's not to hard to rework other per-day character abilities so that they have a different means of refreshing.

Given that not everyone likes the at-will or per-encounter mechanic in some of the more recent editions not sure this is an option for everyone. Of course I have no trouble working with the mechanics as defined in the 3.x/Pathfinder editions. They simply do not cause me trouble as I already have tools as a GM to work with.

I don't really want to diverge this topic to one of editions though. As I readily admit that the at-will/per-encounter works for a good many people just as the earlier 3.x/Pathfinder mechanics work for a good many of people. I'd rather see people discuss how they work with "15 minute workdays" within the mechanics of their preferred system without saying one system does better than another.
 

The 15 min day is not a problem I've ran into,so it would be kinda silly for me to try and fix what ain't broke. It seems more like an issue for PCs designed as glass cannons, though.

The thing is, I GM with a dynamic world. Small dungeons often turn into one big encounter, maybe two or 3 at the most. Big dungeons are usually chains of smaller dungeons. But if the party wants to hide in the broom closet, the other monsters in the dungeon are going to move around, stumble onto the battle scene, and then try to find the PCs (possibly failing). The encounters may not be increased, but the remaining foes would be redistributed.

When and where the PCs rest will be their perogative, not mine.
 

It is possible that this happened. Wandering monsters were supposed to be included thoughtfully. Putting a green slime in a manor is not thoughtful. Considering the guards ARE monsters in such a setting. They may just be men but for the purposes of PC who would likely fight them they are monsters.
Wandering monsters mean that creatures would not be sitting stationary while PC's explored. They were also used to keep things moving. Players who took too long encountered more wandering monsters.

It was a tool.
I'm not trying to say that wandering monsters are bad. In many cases, they can be great (I'm using them in my current campaign, in fact). My point is that they're a tool that makes more sense in some stories than in others--and that relying on the threat of wandering monsters as the primary enforcer of longer adventuring days requires GMs to either constrain themselves to certain types of stories or to use wandering monsters in situations where they don't make sense.

Given that not everyone likes the at-will or per-encounter mechanic in some of the more recent editions not sure this is an option for everyone. Of course I have no trouble working with the mechanics as defined in the 3.x/Pathfinder editions. They simply do not cause me trouble as I already have tools as a GM to work with.

I don't really want to diverge this topic to one of editions though. As I readily admit that the at-will/per-encounter works for a good many people just as the earlier 3.x/Pathfinder mechanics work for a good many of people. I'd rather see people discuss how they work with "15 minute workdays" within the mechanics of their preferred system without saying one system does better than another.
I'm not trying to put one system over the other. With things like Warlocks, Binders, UA recharge magic, and reserve feats, 3e manages to handle non-daily spellcasting just fine.

My current campaign is actually 3e with all the caster classes re-done as invocation users similar to the warlock (Though that's more about shifting the blaster and healer roles to gunslingers and surgeons, given the 1890s setting. The lack of 15 minute adventuring day is just a bonus)
 

I've seen this kind of paradigm mentioned many times around here, too. So I know it wasn't just my groups who did this. So in my experience, the 15-minute adventuring day is not an effect of the game system so much as it is the result of DMs simply misunderstanding the challenge rating system, and forgetting, (or never knowing), the old style of dungeon design.

So really, the way to end the 15-minute adventuring day is not to come up with *more* ideas to force things, but best to just go back to the early idea that not every fight has to be a full-force challenge. Players/PCs falling to the 15-minute adventuring day is not the game's fault, it's the DM's fault -- the DM trains Players to use that tactic.

Bullgrit

I think part of the change on my part was the lack of gaming time available. Back in the days of 1E and 2E, we played weekly and we'd game for a solid 5-6 hours at a time, and sometimes for a lot longer than that. So, we could get in a ton of encounters each session since the DM also ran a tight ship.

Since we're all older now and everybody in my group has kids of their own, our gaming time is limited to every other week (at best) and to about 4 hours each session. And, sometimes we have to cancel due to lack of players (we gamed once in November and once in December so far). With a limited amount of gaming time and encounters taking longer in 3E/3.5 and 4E, it's become necessary (from my perspective) to roll out the important encounters each session and limit the smaller encounters. We just don't have the time to spend on preliminary encounters anymore.

So, figure 50 times gaming per year in the olden days at 5 hours per session is 250 hours per year, not including 3-4 bonus "mega sessions" we'd have where we'd game from 10am all through the day until 3-4am the next morning (14 hours of gaming or so, with a few hours for lunch and dinner)

Now, we're gaming maybe 20 times per year and 4 hours per session, or 80 hours per year. So, less than 1/3 of the hours in terms of gaming.

(However, I know that's not the case for everybody)
 
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Of course, the biggest risk is probably Wandering Monsters. One of the problems with 3E & 4E is not so much that you can't introduce wandering monsters, but that they can upset a dungeon carefully balanced for the PCs leveling at a particular point.

The problem here, imho, is the assumption that the pcs can be led by the nose through a certain sequence of encounters, yielding a certain number of xp, in a predictable fashion.

Is it a problem when the party leaves the dungeon and goes to take care of that local thief who has been aggravating them since level 1? Should the dm not reward xp for engaging with the campaign in preference to keeping an artificial pace? What if the pcs find the secret back entrance that takes them to the lower levels of the dungeon first? Oh noes, my artificial pacing is off!

If XP wasn't done on a per monster basis, but instead at reaching certain "points" along the adventure, this wouldn't be as much a problem (though treasure still might).

Some dms do award xp that way, or simply tell the party when to level. Which is fine if that's the style you want- but in that case, xps are extraneous to the discussion.

Also, if the DM were given options to restock/resupply the bad guys when PCs rest, this could also be a balancing factor. If this options are presented at the start of the adventure for the DM, or presented and discussed in the DMG, it would become a balancing factor.

Some examples:

1) One or more rooms occupants are restocked with reinforcements
2) The complex goes on alert; chances of surprise are lowered and NPCs are prebuffed in preparation for the PCs
3) The bad guys call in some heavy artillery or the clearing of an area allows a more powerful monster to move in
4) Time closes in on preparations the bad guys have made, possibly making them stronger
5) Traps, barriers or other obstacles have been put in place to impede the character's progess

All great ideas.

But to all those people who have suggested that the problem is solved by wandering monsters and threat escalation--well, that's also a solution that sacrifices story concerns for the sake of game rules and game balance.

This is a game we're talking about. The story is what you tell about how the pcs interacted with the adventure. I'll suggest (my playstyle preferences are showing here!) that if you have to have a certain pace in your story, you're best off writing a book and not running a game.

Even so, the suggestion that the organized inhabitants of a dungeon won't proactively seek out the guys who have been killing their friends for the past three days also sacrifices "story concerns" (which I would term "verisimilitude" in this case) for the sake of some spectral idea of fairness/taking it easy on the players/not being mean/let's not mess up the "story" that inevitably has the bad guy encountered in the same room, no matter the time of day or night or what has happened in the interim.

And unlike the "rest area" idea, most of the "punish the players ideas" are huge time sinks. Wandering monsters and re-filled rooms are just extra combats that do nothing to advance progress through the adventure. They're rarely interesting fights: The wandering monster is off a table and the resting party chooses the terrain, making it hard for the GM to prep for an interesting encounter, whereas the re-stocked room is repetitive: similar creatures re-fill the exact same combat spaces. And there can't be much that makes them interesting from a plot perspective, because they're likely to not happen in the first place.

Again there's a lot of reference to plot, progress, etc. The problem with story-based games is keeping the story flowing, and if that's your main problem, maybe the campsites idea is right for you. Personally, I find that the flow of the story of my games comes after they are played, and the pcs drive that flow in the game. They aren't 2nd level by the time they find the stairs down? Well, that's okay; either they'll get greater dangers and treasures for heading down or they'll do something else. They reach 2nd level well before they find those stairs? That's okay too.

Beyond that, wandering monsters certainly can make for interesting combats, as well as be interesting from a "plot" perspective. I'll give you an example. The party imc had a wandering encounter with a group of yuan-ti cultists. Several games later, they learned about a group of yuan-ti in a nearby swamp. Lo and behold, the random encounter led to a cool adventure in a half-sunken yuan-ti ziggurat! Random encounters aren't just monsters that wander the world looking to attack pcs; they are creatures with their own goals too. When the players ask, "Why are these guys here?", a good dm will come up with an answer, even if the players don't know what it is.

I'm not trying to say that wandering monsters are bad. In many cases, they can be great (I'm using them in my current campaign, in fact). My point is that they're a tool that makes more sense in some stories than in others--and that relying on the threat of wandering monsters as the primary enforcer of longer adventuring days requires GMs to either constrain themselves to certain types of stories or to use wandering monsters in situations where they don't make sense.

Oh, absolutely. I'll add that wandering monsters make a lot more sense if the dm thinks about what to put on his wandering monster charts and why they are on it. A long-lost desert tomb shouldn't have a dire boar on the table, but a gray ooze or handful of skeletons make perfect sense. The social adventure where the pcs need to slip away from a dinner party and search the host's office in secret shouldn't have ghouls and giants, it should have the house dog and servants. Using "just any ol' chart" to generate wandering monsters IS a huge problem if you want to maintain verisimilitude.
 


well, that's also a solution that sacrifices story concerns for the sake of game rules and game balance.

IMHO, not at all.

"Wandering monster", IME, has not meant "monster" necessarily so much as a "wandering encounter" and can be used in any setting. A party discovered where they ought not be by a stable boy and a chambermaid looking for an empty room (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) could be in just as much trouble- campaign-wise- as a party in a dungeon discovered by a hungry grey ooze. A party overhearing pilgrims beset by bandits in the night is no less disturbed in an urban setting as they are in a forest.

And having events continue at their pace while the party leisurely restocks & heals is- in my book- a triumph of story over game mechanics.
 

it's become necessary (from my perspective) to roll out the important encounters each session and limit the smaller encounters. We just don't have the time to spend on preliminary encounters anymore.

Along with this, at least for me, my primary gaming nowadays is via PBP. Combat in PBP, even with tweaks to make it faster, is still way longer than face-to-face, and throw-away encounters would bog down an adventure even more, so I feel like I have to throw them away or otherwise cut them short (playing the monsters as dumber than they are) in order to focus on the more important, more exciting ones.
 

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