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JamesonCourage

Adventurer
Again 'It is not about what the players' want... ever' is really hard to misinterpret.
I disagree. I think you might have (as well as a few other posters who replied to him).

I do not see any way to interpret that as 'It is not about what the players' want... ever, unless the GM is just plain wrong, eh?'
That's not my interpretation either, so I'm not sure where you got it.

I have been in three campaigns that broke up because of a GM that tried the My Way or The Highway approach (this means about one a decade).
Sounds like you do that, though. If you won't allow a player a prestige class, or to play elves in your homebrew, or a particular magic item, or the ability to fly because they want to, etc... then you've said, "this is the way it is in my game." That's very much My Way or The Highway.

The first game that I was ever in was reorganized with me as DM because the original DM and his best friend were essentially running the whole party - the DM's BFF cast Charm Person on the whole party, then described what the PCs did, rather than have the players play their own damned characters. He was surprised when he tried the Highway approach only to be told that it wasn't his game any more, goodbye to the both of ye. The game had lasted less than three weeks. The Highway approach really does not work when the game is being held at any place that is not your home.
Um, this is what I've been trying to comment on... a My Way or The Highway approach is both normal, and additionally does not in any way indicate that the game will be run poorly. I feel like you keep trying to attach them, and it's not inherently the case. At all.

He was just plain a control freak, running railroad ride adventures.
See, this seems to be a recurring theme in your My Way or The Highway GMs. The phrase, to me, does not mean Railroad GM. That's a separate thing. My Way or The Highway means that what you say goes. It does not make you a bad GM, and it does not mean you railroad people.

The Auld Grump, I seem to have fallen off topic... must be time for food....
I just ate. It was good.
 

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FireLance

Legend
To continue my occasional practice of referencing other ENWorld threads in my posts:

A DM who isn't concerned about what the players want is like a HR department who isn't concerned about what the employees want. No matter how good it looks on paper, I would rather be somewhere that I'm more valued.
 

JamesonCourage

Adventurer
To continue my occasional practice of referencing other ENWorld threads in my posts:

A DM who isn't concerned about what the players want is like a HR department who isn't concerned about what the employees want. No matter how good it looks on paper, I would rather be somewhere that I'm more valued.
Want is different from reasonableness. For example, if I sit in a friend's core PHB game, and we're level 1, I can demand to be able to fly. I'll have no way to fly, no spell, no racial speed, no ability, but I can demand it, because I really want to.

Pilgrim mentioned want in his post, not reasonableness. Working on your analogy, if I work in HR, and you're making an incredibly unreasonable request as an employee (but you really want something), I won't give in based on want. However, if you're making a very reasonable request as an employee (and you really want something), I'll probably give in (but still not based on want).

Want isn't a big factor in decision making in this analogy, reasonableness is. I hope it's clear what I'm trying to get across. Again, this is just my view, and not me saying how you should play. I do understand where you're coming from, and feeling under-appreciated isn't a good thing. As always, play what you like :)
 

TheAuldGrump

First Post
I disagree. I think you might have (as well as a few other posters who replied to him).
It is a bald statement. How else could it be interpreted? If I say that Norway is near Atlantic City then there is no way to reinterpret that as Norway is near Sweden. It is very much a yes/no statement. He either wrote what he wrote, or he didn't. I am willing to bet on the former.

That's not my interpretation either, so I'm not sure where you got it.
From reading his post. It allows no room for the GM to be wrong - even if the GM is wrong then the GM is the only one that matters.

Sounds like you do that, though. If you won't allow a player a prestige class, or to play elves in your homebrew, or a particular magic item, or the ability to fly because they want to, etc... then you've said, "this is the way it is in my game." That's very much My Way or The Highway.
No - because I allow room for 'whoops! Sorry, bad idea!' In short, I do not claim to be a god. Which was confirmed in subsequent posts that, yes, that is what Pilgrim meant.

I do withhold the right to say 'Sorry! No Oozemasters in the Reformation Hesiar!' But I do not do so if it is not fun for all concerned, and I do give them my reasons. ('Errr, you do know that they are still burning folks for witchcraft in this area, don't you? Even licensed wizards in the Church lands need to be careful. An Oozemaster in Iconoclast lands will be burned at the stake the first time he starts to drip....' :confused: ) *Again, not a random example - a License is a form of Indulgence, allowing the wizard to commit an acknowledged sin in return for coin or service to the Church. It got tied in with Indulgences in general by the Iconoclasts when Maddeus nailed his proclamation to the door. The Traditionalist churches don't consider magic to be a sin at all, though it may be used in their commission.*

Should the players all disagree, I might be moved, but never once has that happened. There has never even been a plurality.

I put most of this information is in the campaign bible, before the campaign starts. With the exception of things brought to me mid campaign, in which case I will think about it for maybe two weeks before deciding, unless it is massively excellent or moronic. ('A feat for using the haft of a polearm in combat? Hell, yeah! Did you ever see the footage of that Swiss guard?...' - 'A feat for firing a whole bunch of arrows at once?! Yeah... no. You can miss a whole lot without taking the Manyshot feat if you want, though, taking the feat won't change that.')

I do not, as a non random example, put in a 'random PC explosion rule'. (Not making that up - though it is possible that the person that told me about it was.)

I do not, as another non random example, declare a houserule that all 1s are life threatening fumbles. Which, let us not forget, is the core of this whole discussion. The GM has put in a houserule that is making the players unhappy.

Um, this is what I've been trying to comment on... a My Way or The Highway approach is both normal, and additionally does not in any way indicate that the game will be run poorly. I feel like you keep trying to attach them, and it's not inherently the case. At all.
We have a bit of an 'if a tree falls' problem here. If I set up an intractable rule 'No evil PCs! Ever!' and the players agree, is it My Way or the Highway?

On most campaigns I have that very rule, and never once have I had a concerted disagreement from the players.

See, this seems to be a recurring theme in your My Way or The Highway GMs. The phrase, to me, does not mean Railroad GM. That's a separate thing. My Way or The Highway means that what you say goes. It does not make you a bad GM, and it does not mean you railroad people.
Not all of my examples were Railroads, though two were.

The rest was a series of GMs pushing through their agenda against concerted player disagreement, and the GMs losing - every single time.

Perhaps a better way for me to phrase it is 'My Way or the Highway only works if your game is worth it.' Nothing in the OP's description, or in Pilgrim's bald statement, makes me think that it is worth it in those instances.

When D tried his schtick with the XP, his game was Not Worth It, and we walked.

When W tried to allow his BFF to run the entire party it was Not Worth It, and we gave him the boot.

When E tried to run an overly controlled Railroad, it was Not Worth It, and I got his players. When he corrected his mistakes then it Was Worth It, and he started GMing again.

When A was a stoner... nah, his game was Never Worth It to Begin With. We just got sick of his trying to run Call of Cthulhu while stoned. :erm: His paranoia was the least of the reasons. He was just plain a lousy GM.

If you have a concerted group of players that are not happy, then the My Way or the Highway won't work. (Why do I feel like I am about to start quoting from the Communist Manifesto?)

It is not a matter of 'anything I say, goes' it is a matter of ruling with the will and consent of the People. :p

In your case it is entirely possible that it is Worth It. Have you ever had to push something through against concerted player disagreement? If so, did it work?

I gave examples, how about the other side?

I just ate. It was good.
I curried some chicken, some veg, and had it over rice. :)

The Auld Grump
 

FireLance

Legend
Pilgrim mentioned want in his post, not reasonableness. Working on your analogy, if I work in HR, and you're making an incredibly unreasonable request as an employee (but you really want something), I won't give in based on want. However, if you're making a very reasonable request as an employee (and you really want something), I'll probably give in (but still not based on want).

Want isn't a big factor in decision making in this analogy, reasonableness is. I hope it's clear what I'm trying to get across.
I may be reading too much into it, but there seems to me to be a significant difference in tone between, "It's not about what the players want....ever. ... The only choice the players have is whether or not they play." and "Reasonable requests may be entertained."
 

JamesonCourage

Adventurer
It is a bald statement. How else could it be interpreted? If I say that Norway is near Atlantic City then there is no way to reinterpret that as Norway is near Sweden. It is very much a yes/no statement. He either wrote what he wrote, or he didn't. I am willing to bet on the former.
It's your interpretation of his meaning that I'm questioning. See the post above yours.

No - because I allow room for 'whoops! Sorry, bad idea!' In short, I do not claim to be a god. Which was confirmed in subsequent posts that, yes, that is what Pilgrim meant.
In context, his being god meant he makes all the decisions. That means going back, if he wants to. It's god within the context of power over his game, not within the context of infallibility.

I do withhold the right to say 'Sorry! No Oozemasters in the Reformation Hesiar!' But I do not do so if it is not fun for all concerned, and I do give them my reasons.
What he said does not contradict giving the reasons why he won't do it. I routinely explain my thought process, and make my decisions based on player feedback. I do not make that decision based on player wants.

'A feat for firing a whole bunch of arrows at once?! Yeah... no. You can miss a whole lot without taking the Manyshot feat if you want, though, taking the feat won't change that.'
If you get the final say no matter what people put forth, that's My Way or The Highway GMing. It's not inherently a bad thing. It's a normal thing, that wise GMs with good judgment will not abuse.

I do not, as another non random example, declare a houserule that all 1s are life threatening fumbles. Which, let us not forget, is the core of this whole discussion. The GM has put in a houserule that is making the players unhappy.
Which should be brought up with the GM. Communication is key, here. If it's a deal-breaker, express such, and follow through if it isn't changed. This leads back to Pilgrim's original point, which we have been discussing.

We have a bit of an 'if a tree falls' problem here. If I set up an intractable rule 'No evil PCs! Ever!' and the players agree, is it My Way or the Highway?
If you're prepared to deny them access to your game if they disagree, how isn't this My Way or The Highway?

Perhaps a better way for me to phrase it is 'My Way or the Highway only works if your game is worth it.'
See, this makes sense to me. Perfect sense. Especially since I think nearly every GM draws a line when it comes to My Way or The Highway GMing. Nearly every GM has a line that they'll draw, even if it doesn't come up most of the time, or if players never object to it.

You're effectively saying, "this style may not be worth it to this player." I agree. That's a very reasonable statement, and perhaps very informative if the OP hasn't put much thought into it yet.

When D tried his schtick with the XP, his game was Not Worth It, and we walked.

When W tried to allow his BFF to run the entire party it was Not Worth It, and we gave him the boot.

When E tried to run an overly controlled Railroad, it was Not Worth It, and I got his players. When he corrected his mistakes then it Was Worth It, and he started GMing again.

When A was a stoner... nah, his game was Never Worth It to Begin With. We just got sick of his trying to run Call of Cthulhu while stoned. :erm: His paranoia was the least of the reasons. He was just plain a lousy GM.
This does not contradict Pilgrim's original post. It supports it.

If you have a concerted group of players that are not happy, then the My Way or the Highway won't work.
It depends on what your goal is. If it's to keep running a game, no matter how displeasurable the game is to you personally, it might fail. Personally, if you have a group of unhappy players, it has a high chance of having absolutely nothing to do with a My Way or The Highway attitude. It's probably just a play style difference. You could change it, but if you'd be unhappy, why do so?

In your case it is entirely possible that it is Worth It. Have you ever had to push something through against concerted player disagreement? If so, did it work?

I gave examples, how about the other side?
Probably. And if I did, then yes. Because, again, no player has ever walked away from my table because they're dissatisfied.

The best example I can think of is switching to my system in it's fledgling stages (back when it was just a bunch of complicated house rules). I said, "the next game I run will be with this (insert 100 pages)."

I heard back, "we'd rather keep playing 3.5, it's been so fun."

"Well, too bad," I said. "It's this, or I'll be playing in one of your games."

We started playing the game that I proposed, because they wanted me GMing.

I curried some chicken, some veg, and had it over rice. :)

The Auld Grump
I love chicken.
 

JamesonCourage

Adventurer
I may be reading too much into it, but there seems to me to be a significant difference in tone between, "It's not about what the players want....ever. ... The only choice the players have is whether or not they play." and "Reasonable requests may be entertained."
I admitted early on that it's poor wording (since quite a few posters reacted pretty vehemently against it). However, nothing in his statement contradicts (or even indicates) that reasonableness isn't a factor. He even indicated in a later post that players can certainly give their input.

Who knows, maybe I'm way off, and defending something he didn't mean. Could be the case.
 

pemerton

Legend
if I sit in a friend's core PHB game, and we're level 1, I can demand to be able to fly. I'll have no way to fly, no spell, no racial speed, no ability, but I can demand it, because I really want to.
I don't see what this has to do with the issue of GM authority.

If everyone at the table has agreed to play a core PHB game, and all the PCs are level 1, then there is no way that a PC can fly without changing the character build rules or the action resolution rules. Which, ex hypothesi, have already been settled.

The OP is not talking about wanting to change the character build rules or the action resolution rules that everyone agreed to abide by. S/he is talking about (i) changing an action resolution rules (critical fumbles) the the GM seems to have unilaterally imposed, and (ii) having the GM build and adjudicate encounters in a way the more closely reflects the default guidelines for the game, and the inclinations of the (friends & family) RPGers at the table.

[MENTION=93930]Systole[/MENTION]: I'll reiterate what others have said - raise the issue in a delicate but unambiguous way with your GM friend.
 

JamesonCourage

Adventurer
JamesonCourage said:
if I sit in a friend's core PHB game, and we're level 1, I can demand to be able to fly. I'll have no way to fly, no spell, no racial speed, no ability, but I can demand it, because I really want to.
I don't see what this has to do with the issue of GM authority.
Pilgrim said that players wants don't matter within the context of decision making. Within the context of GM authority, he's saying that no matter how much I want something, he won't make the decision based on it. I'm not sure how this doesn't tie into GM authority.

If everyone at the table has agreed to play a core PHB game, and all the PCs are level 1, then there is no way that a PC can fly without changing the character build rules or the action resolution rules. Which, ex hypothesi, have already been settled.
Right. And no matter how much I want to fly, that want won't affect his decision to let me fly.

The OP is not talking about wanting to change the character build rules or the action resolution rules that everyone agreed to abide by.
And I wasn't talking about the OP, so... yeah. Maybe that's this disconnect.
 

FireLance

Legend
I admitted early on that it's poor wording (since quite a few posters reacted pretty vehemently against it). However, nothing in his statement contradicts (or even indicates) that reasonableness isn't a factor. He even indicated in a later post that players can certainly give their input.
So, this was the result of rolling a natural 1? I sure hope my DM doesn't use critical failure rules.
 

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