Are there any means for an unarmed Brawler Fighter to count as "wielding" a weapon?

[AbdulAlhazred]

The flaw in your reasoning is easily seen when you understand that you don't have ANY PARTICULAR THING that is an unarmed weapon. You don't have to have an empty hand, etc. Unarmed is not a normal weapon. It can't be enchanted, it doesn't get a prof bonus, you can't HAVE prof with it, and you can't say you are or are not 'wielding' unarmed. It can't be enchanted either. It isn't a WEAPON because it isn't any specific weapon. You can scoff at that all you want, but if you actually follow out what the implications are of unarmed being a weapon then you find it makes any number of other things not work right at all. It simply isn't RAW a weapon. I'm sorry if that offends you but go ahead and talk to CS if you want, etc. I would suggest going into the Q&A archive on the D&D forums. This kind of question has come up 1000's of times and has been quite thoroughly discussed there. I know, I answered many many many questions on the subject back when I was into doing that.

and yes, a chair leg is different from being unarmed, clearly. It is a specific weapon being wielded in a specific hand. Unarmed is not. You don't "make an unarmed attack with your left hand" for instance. You just make an unarmed attack. You CAN however hold a chair leg in your left hand (as long as you designate that your 'main hand').

You are also correct, unarmed attacks aren't off-hand, they aren't ANY hand. There are a number of things they won't specifically trigger or benefit from. Again, you may not like that, but it is still true.

 

[Incenjucar]

Your argument, Abdul, invalidates unarmed attacks as something that can ever be used in the game. A melee basic attack requires a weapon.

Unarmed Attack
Improvised one-handed melee weapon
Cost: — gp
Damage: 1d4
Weight: — lb.
Group:
Unarmed (When you punch, kick, elbow, knee, or even head butt an opponent, you’re making an unarmed strike. A simple unarmed attack is treated as an improvised weapon. Creatures that have natural weapons such as claws or bite attacks are proficient with those natural weapons.).

RAW, it's treated as a weapon.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

No it doesn't. You can make unarmed attacks, what makes you say you can't? The rule is you can always make them. They just aren't a weapon you can wield. Tell me, which hand are you wielding this unarmed attack in? Eh? lol. It even says "when you punch, kick, elbow, knee, or even butt an opponent" and you then TREAT it as an improvised weapon. That doesn't mean it IS a weapon and again you're not wielding your head or your knee the way you are wielding a weapon. In some respects you CAN treat it like you're using a weapon (it works with the weapon keyword for instance) but it won't work with ANY specific language which says "you must be wielding a weapon... " where "..." is anything specific at all. Again, you can verify that this has been FULLY explored in Q&A.

 

[Incenjucar]

It's treated as an improvised weapon. That doesn't mean it isn't treated as a weapon. It already IS a weapon (which is redundant, because it already is an improvised weapon ). While they could make it more explicit, since it is specifically a one-handed weapon, it follows all the rules of a one-handed weapon, and you can't wield multiple weapons in one hand at the same time. As with the monk's attack, what you actually attack with is basically just fluff, but you still need to have one hand available to wield your unarmed attack.

And dude, argument by authority only works if the designers are involved.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

It's treated as an improvised weapon. That doesn't mean it isn't treated as a weapon. It already IS a weapon (which is redundant, because it already is an improvised weapon ). While they could make it more explicit, since it is specifically a one-handed weapon, it follows all the rules of a one-handed weapon, and you can't wield multiple weapons in one hand at the same time. As with the monk's attack, what you actually attack with is basically just fluff, but you still need to have one hand available to wield your unarmed attack.

And dude, argument by authority only works if the designers are involved.

No, you do not need to have a hand free to do an unarmed attack. This is where you've got it wrong. Yes, I agree, when you make an unarmed attack you are making a weapon attack. There's no argument there. The argument is that you can simply say that your empty hand is an 'unarmed attack' and that you are wielding it for purposes like Two Weapon Defense, etc. You can't do that because there's no weapon that is 'in your hand'. See what I'm saying? It would be equally ridiculous if a caster claimed he could count his empty hand as an 'implement' because he can cast without an implement. It is just that in the case of weapons there had to be SOME way to say what the 'W' would be for an attack with no weapon.

 

[Wednesday Boy]

Awesome! Thanks for the input everyone!!

Last night I made my brawler in the character builder and when you equip monk unarmed strike you get the bonuses. I know the CB has its bugs and isn't official but it does lend credence to what you all said.

(And since I got my answer and the discussion is getting heated, [MENTION=177]Umbran[/MENTION] you can close the thread. Thanks!)