Bedrockgames
I post in the voice of Christopher Walken
For some people vancian casting is a must, for others it is a deal breaker. If you are in either of these camps what compromise would you consider acceptable.
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vancian casting, what solution is acceptable to you?
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delericho
Legend
It shouldn't be an either/or prospect.
It's easy enough to present a Wizard class that has the same At-Will/Encounter/Daily pattern of powers as in 4e, and also a Mage class that only has Daily powers. Job done. Give the Mage a much wider ability to customise the daily spell list (that is, memorise the same Daily multiple times, and know a much wider array of Dailies than he can memorise), and you've got the pre-4e magic user almost exactly.
What becomes controversial is the question of which to include first. The Core Rulebook probably doesn't have room to provide only a single arcane spellcaster type, and the Starter Set certainly doesn't. In this case, since the 4e Wizard is the easier to play, I would strongly advocate presenting that first - then fairly quickly produce a Wizard 'splatbook' that presents the Mage.
It's easy enough to present a Wizard class that has the same At-Will/Encounter/Daily pattern of powers as in 4e, and also a Mage class that only has Daily powers. Job done. Give the Mage a much wider ability to customise the daily spell list (that is, memorise the same Daily multiple times, and know a much wider array of Dailies than he can memorise), and you've got the pre-4e magic user almost exactly.
What becomes controversial is the question of which to include first. The Core Rulebook probably doesn't have room to provide only a single arcane spellcaster type, and the Starter Set certainly doesn't. In this case, since the 4e Wizard is the easier to play, I would strongly advocate presenting that first - then fairly quickly produce a Wizard 'splatbook' that presents the Mage.
I would like to see magic as a plot device, but with rules, even if that's unlikely.
One mistake D&D's designers keep making is to design magic's constraints for the dungeon without thinking through the consequences. If you get "free" spells each day, then using them all up in 15 minutes makes sense, for instance. Using your allotment every day also makes sense, implying a hyper-magical world.
If you make spells behave more like scrolls, a hard-to-renew resource, then casting them can remain easy (at will) but uncommon outside of truly life-threatening situations. Ideally you wouldn't have a hard-line constraint, but you'd be given enough rope to hang yourself: "Cap'n, I dunno if th'engines can take much more!"
steeldragons
Steeliest of the dragons
It seems, a good amount of argument against "Vancian" magic is the restrictive nature of the spell tables at lower levels (I'm talking pre-3e here)...being "one and done" for the day is cited over and over as bad/wrong/fun.
To alleviate this in my own campaigns, for years and years, I allowed mage characters to apply bonus spells per day using their Int. scores, as Clerics were allowed bonus spells for high Wisdom.
Between this and the introduction of "cantrips"/0 lvl spells, which I did (and do) not require to be memorized (cantrips being the basic "tricks" first learned/known by all mages) but could be cast as circumstances warranted as long as the mage had it in their spellbook, 1st-4th level mage PCs could have a number of options to use creatively through the day. Everyone was happy and no complaints were heard.
When spontaneous casting came in vogue and people complained about not being able to be sorcerers (I understood but did not like the distinction when they were introduced), I added/adjusted the arcane system such that a mage could/can spontaneously cast spells that they have in their book (i.e. have had/cast/studied for a long time) 2 levels lower than their highest spell level.
So a 5th level mage (highest spell level 3) could spontaneously cast cantrips and their 1st level spells...at 7th level (gaining 4th lvl spells) they could spontaneously cast cantrips, 1st and 2nd level spells, etc...(insofar as what they are permitted per day and have in their spellbooks).
Best of both worlds...keeps the Vancian fluff (which I personally do not and never did have a problem with. Mages pouring over their spellbooks in study is an integral element to the archetype as far as I'm concerned.) but allows some spontaneous casting and increased number of spells per day. Everyone's happy.
...and fluff-ily makes sense to me...that as you increase in power, the spells you've had/studied for years don't need to be constantly re-memorized...they become second nature/old hat.
--SD
To alleviate this in my own campaigns, for years and years, I allowed mage characters to apply bonus spells per day using their Int. scores, as Clerics were allowed bonus spells for high Wisdom.
Between this and the introduction of "cantrips"/0 lvl spells, which I did (and do) not require to be memorized (cantrips being the basic "tricks" first learned/known by all mages) but could be cast as circumstances warranted as long as the mage had it in their spellbook, 1st-4th level mage PCs could have a number of options to use creatively through the day. Everyone was happy and no complaints were heard.
When spontaneous casting came in vogue and people complained about not being able to be sorcerers (I understood but did not like the distinction when they were introduced), I added/adjusted the arcane system such that a mage could/can spontaneously cast spells that they have in their book (i.e. have had/cast/studied for a long time) 2 levels lower than their highest spell level.
So a 5th level mage (highest spell level 3) could spontaneously cast cantrips and their 1st level spells...at 7th level (gaining 4th lvl spells) they could spontaneously cast cantrips, 1st and 2nd level spells, etc...(insofar as what they are permitted per day and have in their spellbooks).
Best of both worlds...keeps the Vancian fluff (which I personally do not and never did have a problem with. Mages pouring over their spellbooks in study is an integral element to the archetype as far as I'm concerned.) but allows some spontaneous casting and increased number of spells per day. Everyone's happy.
...and fluff-ily makes sense to me...that as you increase in power, the spells you've had/studied for years don't need to be constantly re-memorized...they become second nature/old hat.
--SD
As long as I have the option to play an arcane caster who does not forget their spells upon casting them*, I'm fine. For all my dislike of 3E overall, it got this right: We had sorcerors in the core PHB. That was good enough for me.
[SIZE=-2]*And I am annoyed both by "forget for a day" and "forget for an encounter." The key thing is that if I have spell A and spell B, and two spells' worth of whatever resource powers my spellcasting, I want the option to cast A and B, or A and A, or B and B.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-2]*And I am annoyed both by "forget for a day" and "forget for an encounter." The key thing is that if I have spell A and spell B, and two spells' worth of whatever resource powers my spellcasting, I want the option to cast A and B, or A and A, or B and B.[/SIZE]
RangerWickett
Legend
Here's the thing. You need to please the classic D&D players, so Vancian casting is a must. You need to attract gamers who grew up on Harry Potter, so at-will magic is a must. So have them both. If you absolutely must have a single "Wizard" class, do it thus:
Wizard
Each spell has an Mana Point (MP) cost based on its rank, so a rank 1 spell costs 1 MP to cast, a rank 2 spell costs 2 MP, and so on. There are two ways to cast spells as a wizard, prepared and spontaneous.
Spell Preparation. You can spend 5 minutes to prepare any number of spells. You pay the normal amount of MP based on the ranks of those spells, and thereafter you can cast them once.
Spontaneous Spellcasting. You can cast any spell without preparation, but it costs 1 extra MP.
There are three types of wizard -- Vancian, Rowlingian, and MarvelversusCapcomian.
Vancian. You get a pool of MP based on your class level. See chart xx. You cannot cast spells spontaneously, and so must prepare spells.
Rowlingian. You also get MP, but a smaller amount. You cannot prepare spells. You must cast spontaneously. Whenever you take a short rest, you recover all your MP.
MarvelversusCapcomian. You also get MP, but an even smaller amount. Each round that you are in danger, you gain X MP (based on your level). Whenever you take a short rest, any MP you have in excess of your normal maximum goes away.
(Basically you charge your super meter, like in Marvel vs Capcom.)
Wizard
Each spell has an Mana Point (MP) cost based on its rank, so a rank 1 spell costs 1 MP to cast, a rank 2 spell costs 2 MP, and so on. There are two ways to cast spells as a wizard, prepared and spontaneous.
Spell Preparation. You can spend 5 minutes to prepare any number of spells. You pay the normal amount of MP based on the ranks of those spells, and thereafter you can cast them once.
Spontaneous Spellcasting. You can cast any spell without preparation, but it costs 1 extra MP.
There are three types of wizard -- Vancian, Rowlingian, and MarvelversusCapcomian.
Vancian. You get a pool of MP based on your class level. See chart xx. You cannot cast spells spontaneously, and so must prepare spells.
Rowlingian. You also get MP, but a smaller amount. You cannot prepare spells. You must cast spontaneously. Whenever you take a short rest, you recover all your MP.
MarvelversusCapcomian. You also get MP, but an even smaller amount. Each round that you are in danger, you gain X MP (based on your level). Whenever you take a short rest, any MP you have in excess of your normal maximum goes away.
(Basically you charge your super meter, like in Marvel vs Capcom.)
I personally view Vancian casting as part of D&D's identity, so with that in mind- and in the interest of minimizing the size of the Core 3- I'd want it to be the game's default magic in the PHB.
And supplement #1 should be a great whacking book* of alternative "magic" systems: Psionic/spell/mana points, a fatigue system, incarnum, rune casting, shadow, true naming, defiling, etc., plus new classes to use them, including sections on how to swap those systems out for PHB Vancian classes...and vice versa.
All playtested enough to make sure they balance with the default system reasonably well.
* I mean as big as 2xPHB page count.
And supplement #1 should be a great whacking book* of alternative "magic" systems: Psionic/spell/mana points, a fatigue system, incarnum, rune casting, shadow, true naming, defiling, etc., plus new classes to use them, including sections on how to swap those systems out for PHB Vancian classes...and vice versa.
All playtested enough to make sure they balance with the default system reasonably well.
* I mean as big as 2xPHB page count.
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