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D&D lovers who hate Vancian magic

Actually, considering how much someone like Jane Austen is used in public schools, and universities, it would not surprise me to learn that Jane Austen sells roughly in the same ballpark as Tolkien.
It would surprise me- most of the copies of Jane Austen (and others) I've seen in use by students are used copies, sales figures of which generally don't get counted by publishers.

Sure, the publishers will have to replenish the shelves as the used copies die, but that's not going to be a recipe for sales in the volume of a hot new writer...or a veteran who has finally gotten mass recognition and winds up on the NY Times' best seller list.
 

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It would surprise me- most of the copies of Jane Austen (and others) I've seen in use by students are used copies, sales figures of which generally don't get counted by publishers.

Pride and Prejudice (Dover thrift edition) is currenty [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Pride-Prejudice-Dover-Thrift-Editions/dp/0486284735/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1326846915&sr=8-1"]#1253[/ame] in Amazon's book rankings. The Hobbit is [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Hobbit-J-R-R-Tolkien/dp/0618968636/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1326846959&sr=1-1"]#1719[/ame].
 

Pride and Prejudice (Dover thrift edition) is currenty #1253 in Amazon's book rankings. The Hobbit is #1719.

LOL, but according to so many posters, those stats are completely meaningless or at best highly misleading! After all, if they were true, Pathfinder might be outselling 4e and that isn't plausible!

BTW, those stats ARE misleading and probably mostly meaningless.
 


Pride and Prejudice (Dover thrift edition) is currenty #1253 in Amazon's book rankings. The Hobbit is #1719.

My guess if we compared all editions Amazon sells of Pride & Prejudice vs all edition of JRRT's LotR (for simplicity's sake, just the first book), you'd see a different pattern.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_books

LotR- grouped as a single book despite being 3- is listed at selling over 150 million copies since 1937, the Hobbit at 100 million by itself. Most books don't hit that mark. And that's spotting Austen a 115 year head start.

In contrast, Pride & Pejudice sold just over 100k copies in 2002 spread out over 130 editions according to Neilsen BookScan (which, in fairness, does not include sales to students via normal academic outlets).

http://touch.slate.com/slate/#!/entry/why-classic-novels-are-still-around,4ea2553456d940d006000af9
 
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I personally see Vancian magic as one of D&D's defining features, something that sets it apart from other FRPGs. Something that adds to its unique character.

Not everyone feels likewise, I know. Lovers of Vancian magic may even be in the minority of D&D players at this point.

So for those who really despise Vancian magic as much as some clearly do, I have to ask: What is it about D&D that attracted you to the game?
I was given the Moldvay Basic set as a gift when I turned 11. I had heard of D&D before that, because I was an avid purchaser and player of Fighting Fantasy Gamebooks, which were published by Puffin and therefore carried, at the back, advertisement copy for the Puffin book "What is Dungeons and Dragons?" I hadn't heard of other fantasy RPGs at that time, and the family friends who gave me the game hadn't either - they bought the game for me on the recommendation of a toy store salesperson ("What would you recommend for a bright and bookish 11 year old boy?").

What attracted me to Fighting Fantasy books, and then to D&D, were the same things that attracted me to books about knights and castles (both fiction and non-fiction), to super hero comics, and to movies like Star Wars and Excalibur: pleasure in the themes and the tropes. As a boy I probably could not have articulated exactly what that consisted in, but now I would say it is something about the pre-modern, romantic ideal.

I also enjoyed the gameplay aspect, but the themes are more important. While, by the standards of a typical person, I have played a lot of M:tG, for instance, I have never been the least inclined to drop fantasy RPGs for fantasy CCGs, which have the gameplay and the tropes, but not the thematic dimension.

Anyway, Vancian casting is utterly irrelevant to any of this. As a mechanic, I tend to find it a nuisance - not so much the tracking of usage, which is easy enough, but the selection process, which bogs down play (even with the 4e wizard in my game, I find it causes needless drag for little apparent benefit). At low levels I regard it as obviously flawed, because low level wizards don't really play as wizards, but I have never played nor GMed a pure wizard PC, despite many years of playing and GMing B/X and AD&D.

For aesthetic reasons I have long preferred the more focused spellcasters of Rolemaster to the generalist D&D wizard, and I like that 4e produces somewhat less generalist spellcasters (though power bloat is, over time, diluting this). That said, I am hoping to run BW some time in the future, and it has generalist casters - but on a fatigue mechanic, not a Vancian one.

I hope that gives you some answer to your question!
 

So what's the point of this tangent line of inquiry? That Jane Austen's magic system is more popular than Jack Vance's?

The tangent involves defining "obscurity", specifically defined by one poster as using sales as the primary metric (in reference to writers like Jack Vance). My counterpoint is that lack of sales does not directly correlate with how well known an author is.
 
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The tangent involves defining "obscurity", specifically defined by one poster as using sales as the primary metric (in reference to writers like Jack Vance). My counterpoint is that lack of sales does not directly correlate with how well known an author is.
How well known by whom? And just because the author may be well-known as a name in the genre does not mean that people are as widely familiar with their works in comparison with other more contemporaneous writers of the field. For example, fantasy fans generally know of Moorcock and Elric without having ever read any of it, as they may be personally enjoy and be more familiar with A Song of Ice and Fire, Malazan, or The Gentlemen Bastards, etc.
 

How well known by whom?

I believe both sides were talking about within the context of fantasy initially, then about the principle of using sales as a measuring stick of obscurity in general. That's when the discussion went cross-genre.
 
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