D&D 5E Should 5e have a "default setting" and cosmology?

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
Are you sure you read the 4e Dark Sun book? Cuz there were a lot of races that were just skipped over or left out in the cold deliberately.

None from the first PHB. This was pretty obviously intentional: D&D players are going to own the first PHB, and they are going to expect to be able to play with the options therein.

From what we can tell about the 4e DS creative process, the designers didn't include eladrin and dragonborn because they had to but rather because, as game designers, they thought it was a good idea for including the 4th edition version of Dark Sun.

Without trying to read the minds of designers, I can only say that there's a dang good logical reason why you don't want to contradict the book that you require in order to play the game. If you define halflings as one thing, and then go back on that, it's a lot more confusing than if you don't really narrowly define them in the first place, and let people decide on their own what role halflings play in the world.

When you bake world information into your core rules, you introduce pressure to all your supplemental rules to keep that world information the same.

That would be a big problem in a game that's supposed to be modular and flexible.
 

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Oni

First Post
I think I would prefer that instead of a default setting there was an example setting. Something with plenty of reminders that it was just one way of doing things and that changing, removing, and making up new material was not only okay, but encouraged.
 

boredgremlin

Banned
Banned
Sure, but they can't.

That ties their hands when they release future rules and supplements. If halflings are assumed to be one thing, then nothing can come out that severely contradicts what the core rules assume they are, and nothing can come out that tries to exclude them, because "people will expect them." Suddenly, the Nordic or Aurthurian or Gothic Horror setting needs to somehow find a role for Bilbo Baggins or whatever, even if that contradicts the tone of the setting.

That's a bad predicament.

Those who want a default setting can buy a setting book. Or an adventure with a town in it. Or whatever. There's no need for a core setting. There's a million different ways to help out newbie or time-sensitive DMs. Jamming an expected world into a supposedly modular core rules base isn't a great way to solve the problem, since it hard-codes the setting assumptions into the base rules, making them difficult to remove.

If you didn't want eladrin or dragonborn or tieflings or tricksy halflings as a core race in 4e, you were SOL, because there they were, in places where maybe they didn't need to be (FR or Dark Sun, forex). To avoid that problem in the future, the game needs to be setting agnostic at its base level.

Want to have a setting done for you? Buy a setting book. That's what they're there for.

I just have 2 questions.

1. What part of telling players "I dont care if dragonborn are in the core book. I think they are stupid and they dont exist in this world, pick something else..... was difficult exactly?

I've been doing it for years now with no problems.

and 2. What if i dont want to have to shell out another 40$ for an entire setting book just to have a little framework?


I find some of the statements here hilariously contradictory.

I.E.

" if theres a class with fluff in the rulebook, like for instance the knight of corinthian (Which for example is a fighterish class with bonuses to riding because Corinthian is famous for horsemanship and perhaps is even a mongol style civilization) then its just waaaayyy waaaayyyy waaaayyyy too hard for me to find a town like that somewhere in the entirety of my homebrew world. so that just cant be in the rules.

"The concept that I, me, must find a single city with a horse warrior culture somewhere in the entirety of my planet simply boggles my creative ability, handcuffs me in ways that break my enjoyment of the game and most importantly is far too much work to integrate"

Immediately followed by

"I must be free to develop the entire world like i want without having any assumptions whatsoever thrust upon me." Nevermind that the 2nd is absolutely impossible unless you remove all racial abilities and adjustments to scores and just made everyone humans in funny clothes. Whats most funny is the inherent silliness in the argument.

I remember there was a something of pelos in the 3rd addition. PrC for religious characters i think but its been a long time. I remember they squashed undead really good which was the real point.

Anyway i remember there was a good bit of fluff with it. But my world had no god pelos. Oh noooossssee what do i do?

I said the player who wanted it could have it but it was the something or other Sol. Our god of the sun. whew, problem solved.

I also outlawed ninjas. Which if anyone remembers those class books WERE considered core at the end of 3e so was the same as outlawing something in players handbook.

Didnt break my game to take out a specialty asian/western version of asian thieves. We had an asian part of the world. They had rogues. Rogues who spied on people and carried out assinations were called ninjas and belonged to clans.

Players who wanted to be a ninja could take it or leave it. No one really cared.

Its the easiest thing in the world to ignore fluff you dont like. Including it doesnt hurt anyone.
 

Zaukrie

New Publisher
I don't know where some of you are playing, but to say there are no shared experiences or stories in this hobby is foreign to me. I talk to people across the county I've never met before, on these very boards, about adventures and worlds and stories we share.

As for "WotC can't ignore it in the future", sure they can, and they have. So I don't get that one either.

It is super easy to ignore a default setting. I do it all the time. It is super hard for someone that has never played before to just jump in and play, without a story behind what they are doing. Why is this different than 40 years ago you ask? I don't know, maybe it is 20 years of video games and board games that have stories in them. That's my theory anyway.
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
boredgremlin said:
What part of telling players "I dont care if dragonborn are in the core book. I think they are stupid and they dont exist in this world, pick something else..... was difficult exactly?

Read the post more closely. I'm not talking about the problems I personally have in my home game with a baked-in setting. I'm talking about the problems that having a baked-in setting causes in the production of future material.

boredgremlin said:
What if i dont want to have to shell out another 40$ for an entire setting book just to have a little framework?

If that's too much, I'll gladly whip up a quick setting for you for $10. In fact, I'll whip up a basic setting for anyone for $10.

If that's still too much, you can find a lot of great free adventures and material on the internet.

If that's too much time and effort, maybe you'd prefer a random adventure generation table you can roll on?

Point being, it's not hard to get your paws on a cheap quick framework if that's what you want.

What it IS hard to do is to is to liberate the game from embedded assumptions about what lives where and hates who for what reasons.
 

S

Sunseeker

Guest
What it IS hard to do is to is to liberate the game from embedded assumptions about what lives where and hates who for what reasons.

Exactly. 100 times exactly THIS.

The problem isn't simply NOT using a specific setting's material. It's extricating the "base" material from the setting. Often because things were balanced around these setting-specific rules. There's absolutely NO reason that core system mechanics and information need to be integrated into a setting. Extra fluff and setting-specific information can be easily added to the base information, it's so, so, soooooooo much hard to remove.
 

Zaukrie

New Publisher
Exactly. 100 times exactly THIS.

The problem isn't simply NOT using a specific setting's material. It's extricating the "base" material from the setting. Often because things were balanced around these setting-specific rules. There's absolutely NO reason that core system mechanics and information need to be integrated into a setting. Extra fluff and setting-specific information can be easily added to the base information, it's so, so, soooooooo much hard to remove.

Maybe I don't understand the question, or definition, then. Because the non-setting specific rules are filled with "where things live" and "who hates who" in every edition.

Like, assuming that Genies live in desert climates? Like naming some spells after Mordenkainen? Like saying halflings are shorter than humans? We seem to talking past each other on this. Like that orcs and humans are enemies?
 

Halivar

First Post
Maybe I don't understand the question, or definition, then. Because the non-setting specific rules are filled with "where things live" and "who hates who" in every edition.
It goes beyond that. Saying that Tieflings come from Bael Turath, and had an empire that spanned the world millenia ago intrudes far more into my campaign setting than the examples you mention.
 

boredgremlin

Banned
Banned
I don't know where some of you are playing, but to say there are no shared experiences or stories in this hobby is foreign to me. I talk to people across the county I've never met before, on these very boards, about adventures and worlds and stories we share.

As for "WotC can't ignore it in the future", sure they can, and they have. So I don't get that one either.

It is super easy to ignore a default setting. I do it all the time. It is super hard for someone that has never played before to just jump in and play, without a story behind what they are doing. Why is this different than 40 years ago you ask? I don't know, maybe it is 20 years of video games and board games that have stories in them. That's my theory anyway.

I dont think it is different then 20 or 40 years ago. I'm sure there were lots of people back then who tried to start and just found the whole thing too much and too overwhelming so never really got into it.

15 years or so ago when i started there were plenty of people i remember playing with who tried to DM at some point and found the amount of work setting everything up to just be too much for their fun so dropped it.

We just dont hear about those people here because..... they stopped gaming 20 years ago. LOL. So we get a disproportionate sample of people who thought it was easy, fun and simple back then just by virtue of only hearing from the people who stuck with it.
 

Shemeska

Adventurer
The snark is powerful with this one

I think there should be, even if only in the most superficial way. I really -really- want to see the Great Wheel as a default cosmology for 5e, because it served as the game's default cosmology for three editions of the game, and by having the common terminology and tropes it provides, you have the D&D community by extension sharing a lot of experiences.

That was the case till 4e anyways when they provided a different, incredibly intrusive default cosmology and world design into the mix that retconned its way into every setting. No longer could I talk about eladrin, archons, devas, and other creatures online and be sure that I was even talking about the same thing as other folks. That disconnect is a big problem, and one that I truly want to go away for 5e.

I don't mean that the core book should go into crazy detail on the Great Wheel, but provide just enough surface detail that we're all starting from the same basic definitions. Each campaign setting can then go into details on them and describe differences from the default as it so deigns, rather than the 4e 'hey guess what, FR has a new, new cosmology... again, and its always been this way, again' and 'suddenly feywild and shadow shadow bo badow for Dark Sun'.
 

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